So has Clara now left, or is she returning for the Christmas episode?

 

As far as we know, she is returning because there's still that "massive twist" we're yet to see. She was interviewed in a magazine this month and she appeared to know a few plot details, who the guest cast would be playing, etc. so I assume she'll be there (in some form at least).

Thanks Calum!

Wow, great finish to an excellent series, after a wobbly start I think Peter Capaldi delivered throughout the series and probably becoming my favourite Dr. all time.

 

The last episode just really killed it for me and well executed, and Nick Frost in the Xmas episode. :D

I HAVEN'T WATCHED THIS YET!

 

I HAVEN'T WATCHED IT!!

 

DO NOT SPOIL IT!!

 

(Unless it's already spoiled by being atrocious, then you know)

 

FOR THE LUURV OF GAWD DINET SPOIL EEET!!!

Oh my god, can we all just take a moment... I've just seen a comment on a Doctor Who fan website by a member who said "I just think the Doctor banging against the TARDIS console like he did makes him a wife beater".

 

I'm officially DONE. I'm in fits of laughter right now.

But at the same time it also highlights how extremely deranged some people are.

Oh my god, can we all just take a moment... I've just seen a comment on a Doctor Who fan website by a member who said "I just think the Doctor banging against the TARDIS console like he did makes him a wife beater".

 

I'm officially DONE. I'm in fits of laughter right now.

 

Oh. My. God. LOL!!

What a finale. Perfect ending to a perfect series, the finest Moffat series by an absolute MILE, up there with the RTD era :wub:

Am I the only one who thought the plot was messy and ill balanced? Lot's of emphasis on character is great but you have to keep the story plausible to make it work, even 'in universe'. The whole pollination idea is quite frankly ridiculous. It was also far too cheesy in places when it could have been more. The whole salute thing was contrived and unnecessary.

 

The Cybermen were yet again reduced to being shit and having no threatening presence despite what should have been a very menacing premise (although there were some great moments with the Cybermen being reborn). If they are to continue to be abused in the way they have been since the relaunch then I hope to never see them EVER, EVER again. They used to be my second favourite monster and now they just suck. :(

 

Clara and Danny got to the point of I don't really care any more because I just don't buy it because it all seems rushed and forced.

 

However, Gomez and Capaldi together are wonderful and rescued the whole episode from drudgery. If Clara is to leave (and really it is time) then I could think of nothing more appealing than having Missy as The Doctor's traveling partner. That would make for a fantastic season.

 

Am I the only one who thought the plot was messy and ill balanced? Lot's of emphasis on character is great but you have to keep the story plausible to make it work, even 'in universe'. The whole pollination idea is quite frankly ridiculous. It was also far too cheesy in places when it could have been more. The whole salute thing was contrived and unnecessary.

 

The Cybermen were yet again reduced to being shit and having no threatening presence despite what should have been a very menacing premise (although there were some great moments with the Cybermen being reborn). If they are to continue to be abused in the way they have been since the relaunch then I hope to never see them EVER, EVER again. They used to be my second favourite monster and now they just suck. :(

 

Clara and Danny got to the point of I don't really care any more because I just don't buy it because it all seems rushed and forced.

 

However, Gomez and Capaldi together are wonderful and rescued the whole episode from drudgery. If Clara is to leave (and really it is time) then I could think of nothing more appealing than having Missy as The Doctor's traveling partner. That would make for a fantastic season.

I disagree with you entirely re. the Cybermen. They were so much better and so much more of a presence in this episode than they were in 'Nightmare in Silver' and 'Closing Time' for example. Both of those episodes had them as a mere back-seat presence, but here they actually felt like a genuine threat coupled with the Mistress. The one thing Moffat wanted to do by having the Cybermen appear was to turn them around and make them scary again, but if even he cannot do that then I'd say it's the Cybermen that are shit.

I'm going to be really critical but for me Dark Water built up all the tension and drama so brilliantly that Death In Heaven just didn't deliver and just felt a bit all over the place, especially the first 15-20 minutes after the plane moment.

 

Cannot fault the acting though! Peter and Jenna were amazing and Michelle Gomez was brilliant as Missy. I think Peter Capaldi is definitely up there with David Tennant as my fave Doctor so far I really hope he sticks with the show for at least another series as he's been better than I could have hoped

 

Though compared to previous Moffatt episodes at least this wasn't a mess, could have been better but a fantastic end to what has been an enjoyable series. Looking forward to Christmas though!!

I disagree with you entirely re. the Cybermen. They were so much better and so much more of a presence in this episode than they were in 'Nightmare in Silver' and 'Closing Time' for example. Both of those episodes had them as a mere back-seat presence, but here they actually felt like a genuine threat coupled with the Mistress. The one thing Moffat wanted to do by having the Cybermen appear was to turn them around and make them scary again, but if even he cannot do that then I'd say it's the Cybermen that are shit.

The Cybermen in concept aren't shit, and being a presence doesn't make them either interesting or scary. Missy wa the threat, they were just goons akin to the Robomen or Ogrons. They should live up to their status as an iconic sci-fi (not just Who) villain. Humans (well, Mondasians) that have changed multiple body parts for implants in order to extend their lifespan and who believe that is the way forward for all lifeforms and yet in the process have lost sight of what makes them 'human', developing a cold, warped and twisted sense of what it is to live. That is brilliant.

 

Except what we have been served up since the show relaunched is a 'hive mind' robot that has been anything other than the a collective conscience, unless that collective has a combined IQ of 75. Always wandering about in subservience to some other entity, with none of their brilliant scheming from the classic show and mindlessly repeating 'you will be deleted' as if that is anything but a half arsed substitute for the Dalek's catchphrase. The Cybermen should have no remorse, not no personality, or intelligence, for that matter.

 

 

 

The Cybermen were so good in the classic show - The Tenth Planet, Moonbase, The Invasion, Tomb Of The Cybermen, Earthshock - all are brilliant stories and the Cybermen are genuinely creepy but the modern show has taken away the one thing that made them great - that they were almost human. We could see ourselves in them. Somewhere deep down. Now they come across as mindless automatons. Like The Terminator, in an Iron Man costume, with all the malicious intent of a slightly narked C3-PO.

 

No-one has written the Cybermen properly in 30 years and that is a crying shame.

The Cybermen in concept aren't shit, and being a presence doesn't make them either interesting or scary. Missy wa the threat, they were just goons akin to the Robomen or Ogrons. They should live up to their status as an iconic sci-fi (not just Who) villain. Humans (well, Mondasians) that have changed multiple body parts for implants in order to extend their lifespan and who believe that is the way forward for all lifeforms and yet in the process have lost sight of what makes them 'human', developing a cold, warped and twisted sense of what it is to live. That is brilliant.

 

Except what we have been served up since the show relaunched is a 'hive mind' robot that has been anything other than the a collective conscience, unless that collective has a combined IQ of 75. Always wandering about in subservience to some other entity, with none of their brilliant scheming from the classic show and mindlessly repeating 'you will be deleted' as if that is anything but a half arsed substitute for the Dalek's catchphrase. The Cybermen should have no remorse, not no personality, or intelligence, for that matter.

The Cybermen were so good in the classic show - The Tenth Planet, Moonbase, The Invasion, Tomb Of The Cybermen, Earthshock - all are brilliant stories and the Cybermen are genuinely creepy but the modern show has taken away the one thing that made them great - that they were almost human. We could see ourselves in them. Somewhere deep down. Now they come across as mindless automatons. Like The Terminator, in an Iron Man costume, with all the malicious intent of a slightly narked C3-PO.

 

No-one has written the Cybermen properly in 30 years and that is a crying shame.

Missy was indeed the threat, but hand-in-hand with that we had the Cybermen that were the result of dead people all across the world rising from their graves and becoming superior beings, as well as people in the Gallifreyan hive mind choosing to 'delete' their emotions and become Cybermen. If that is not a great concept then I really do not know what is. One thing about this fanbase is that it is becoming extremely harder for the writers to please them in any way whatsoever, and a lot of people (if not the majority) go into episodes with expectations set far too high. Yes, Missy was using them as part of her own plan, but the whole idea of having Danny rebel against those plans and show that one Cyberman could turn the whole army against her, well... what more do you need really to prove they're an individual threat? Maybe not threatening to the audience, but it's not all about that. They need to be threatening to the characters they're actually in the episodes with too for it to seem at least a little bit real.

 

I think another thing a lot of people who are stuck in the past with all of the classic series' as well is that the show is all about change. The show has moved on since the Cybermen invaded London in the 1900s, things are different in more modern stories that tackle more modern issues. The Cybermen, much like any other villain that has appeared in the revival that was there way back then, have been adapted to fit in with just how modern the show is, and the issues that it serves to tackle and the audience it serves to please. A villain does not need to be exactly as a fan describes it because it has happened in the past. There are infinite possibilities with a villain if you look to the future instead (what Moffat appears to be doing 99.9% of the time when he's writing). You're never going to develop any of these villains if you just look to their past encounters with the Doctor and see how you can replicate that for the sake of pleasing the old-timers.

 

Everybody who has written for the Cybermen since Doctor Who's revival has written them properly, it's more a simple case of some people proving much more difficult to please than others.

Missy was indeed the threat, but hand-in-hand with that we had the Cybermen that were the result of dead people all across the world rising from their graves and becoming superior beings, as well as people in the Gallifreyan hive mind choosing to 'delete' their emotions and become Cybermen. If that is not a great concept then I really do not know what is. One thing about this fanbase is that it is becoming extremely harder for the writers to please them in any way whatsoever, and a lot of people (if not the majority) go into episodes with expectations set far too high. Yes, Missy was using them as part of her own plan, but the whole idea of having Danny rebel against those plans and show that one Cyberman could turn the whole army against her, well... what more do you need really to prove they're an individual threat? Maybe not threatening to the audience, but it's not all about that. They need to be threatening to the characters they're actually in the episodes with too for it to seem at least a little bit real.

 

I think another thing a lot of people who are stuck in the past with all of the classic series' as well is that the show is all about change. The show has moved on since the Cybermen invaded London in the 1900s, things are different in more modern stories that tackle more modern issues. The Cybermen, much like any other villain that has appeared in the revival that was there way back then, have been adapted to fit in with just how modern the show is, and the issues that it serves to tackle and the audience it serves to please. A villain does not need to be exactly as a fan describes it because it has happened in the past. There are infinite possibilities with a villain if you look to the future instead (what Moffat appears to be doing 99.9% of the time when he's writing). You're never going to develop any of these villains if you just look to their past encounters with the Doctor and see how you can replicate that for the sake of pleasing the old-timers.

 

Everybody who has written for the Cybermen since Doctor Who's revival has written them properly, it's more a simple case of some people proving much more difficult to please than others.

I don't particularly disagree with any you atually say in regards to the Cybermen needing to reflect modern issues and concepts that the show is tackling. Who is at its best when it does it well. The idea of the Cybermen harvest dead bodies for use to swell their numbers is ok. The way it was executed was a bit iffy - so the water somehow creates a Cyber suit around the corpse? Hmm, OK I can just about go with it. And of course the Cybermen can only ever be a threat to the characters in the show and the situation they're in. They certainly can't harm the audience.

 

My issue is the way they've been reduced from being a society who strove for immortality (or at least longevity) by replacing body parts to an emotionless machine that HAS lost it's individuality and has a hive mind. Itself not a bad idea except it was done years ago by Star Trek. I don't see turning the Cybermen into The Borg as a positive or original change. I was probably a bit harsh in saying no-ones written them properly in 30 years - I think the parallel universe Cybermen were actually quite faithful to the originals but the Mondasian version were getting now just doesn't quite work for me. The new version of the show hasn't (beyond cosmetic appearance) changed the core characteristics of the Daleks, the Sontarans, the Ice Warriors, or the Autons. I get what they're trying to say and how they're developing them from Kit Pedlar's original concept (the more you embrace technology the less human you become) but if they're going to do that then the Cybermen should be more powerful and self dependent and not always a pawn in someone else's game.

I loved bits of it, despised others. Missy's overall plan came off as a bit weak in the end considering the effort she went through to execute it. There also wasn't a significant scene to warrant her being the Master and not just some new villain which kind of cheapened last week's reveal for me. Michelle Gomez is excellent though.

 

I'm fed up with Clara now and am hoping she leaves soon. She improved a lot this series but it's become a bit too much about her. The last scene with her and the Doctor was frustrating for all the wrong reasons.

 

Can we have a companion just hop along for the ride next time? No mystery, not everything revolving around their private life? Let's have some straightforward adventures with an uncomplicated overarching plot. Things weren't explained well in this episode.

Can we have a companion just hop along for the ride next time?

No? We need to actually be able to relate to the companion on some level, but if they're just there because they need somebody to fill the role of the companion, there's literally zero point in having one.

No? We need to actually be able to relate to the companion on some level, but if they're just there because they need somebody to fill the role of the companion, there's literally zero point in having one.

 

I can relate much more to someone normal the Doctor encounters who's fascinated by the wonders he can show them than I can with an 'Impossible Girl'. Sure they can have a personal life, but one they return to every now and them so that it's not shoved in our faces every episode. Also, can the companion actually TRAVEL with the Doctor again? Instead of field trips? It's a time machine so there shouldn't be any need to rush back for anything.

Might put proper thoughts later but...

 

I wish the Master (yes not Missy) would have stayed on for the Christmas special. I thought it was a good idea that her plan was intended mainly to get at the Doctor and for him to realise he perhaps might not be so different to her. It was natural that her plan did just revolve around the Doctor but then, once he showed her that he was not like her, I think she should have then turned round with some random grand master plan that led into the Christmas special where she truly shows that she's a real menace. I just thought her departure was a bit rushed at the end.

I just thought her departure was a bit rushed at the end.

 

I agree, the whole build up throughout the series and up to the reveal in Dark Water was done so well that it felt like a bit of an anti climax with her exit and I still would like to see an explanation as to how she regenerated into Missy from John Simm's exit in End Of Time.

 

Though parts of the episode were frustrating I still think the finale and the series as a whole was the best of the Moffatt era so far though I wish he wouldn't try and throw so many ideas and stories into the plot as I'd like to see things being resolved.

 

I hope that wasn't the last we see of Missy though......

 

I can relate much more to someone normal the Doctor encounters who's fascinated by the wonders he can show them than I can with an 'Impossible Girl'. Sure they can have a personal life, but one they return to every now and them so that it's not shoved in our faces every episode. Also, can the companion actually TRAVEL with the Doctor again? Instead of field trips? It's a time machine so there shouldn't be any need to rush back for anything.

I think that may well be the way they go with the next companion. I'm still assuming Clara is off very soon being that she must be pregnant. After all the complicated stories that both her and Amy have been involved in t would make a refreshing change to simplify it a little. They don't need to sacrifice characterisation or 'relatability' to do so.