The idea of Alistair Darling vitriolically bullying anything or being testosterone fuelled amuses me. The man's basically the old stereotype of the boring responsible banker made manifest!

You're ok with heart-over-head emotional guff from Salmond though, right?

 

On reflection you are quite right about Darling, however as the rhetoric of the whole 'better together' campaign has had that tone - I lazily attributed it to him.

Edited August 5, 201410 yr by Doctor Blind

You're ok with heart-over-head emotional guff from Salmond though, right?

That's basically been his schtick from day one.

Darling has always been competent but boring. That's far better than incompetent but charismatic.

Darling has always been competent but boring. That's far better than incompetent but charismatic.

 

I second that emulsion...

Darling has always been competent but boring. That's far better than incompetent but charismatic.

 

 

Is Salmond incompetent because he is passionate about making politics matter and ensuring the post 1945 settlement isnt totally destroyed by the neo-liberals in England - and im talking about Millibands Labour party there too. Theres no choice in uk politics because all parties have become beaurocrats to the neoliberal economic project at least the Snp try to show an alternative!

Is Salmond incompetent because he is passionate about making politics matter and ensuring the post 1945 settlement isnt totally destroyed by the neo-liberals in England - and im talking about Millibands Labour party there too. Theres no choice in uk politics because all parties have become beaurocrats to the neoliberal economic project at least the Snp try to show an alternative!

I was speaking in general terms, not labelling Salmond as incompetent.

Is Salmond incompetent because he is passionate about making politics matter and ensuring the post 1945 settlement isnt totally destroyed by the neo-liberals in England - and im talking about Millibands Labour party there too. Theres no choice in uk politics because all parties have become beaurocrats to the neoliberal economic project at least the Snp try to show an alternative!

If jingoistic nationalism is the only alternative then we're all fucked.

The Daily Record have published an article showing four 'undecided' votes swayed to 'yes' votes following the debate. Hopefully that number increases.

At this stage they'd need a lot more than four.

True. They now also have a poll, and assuming that doesn't consist of about ten regular visitors to the site:

 

"How will you now vote after watching the TV independence debate?"

 

Yes: 72%

No: 26%

Still undecided: 3%

Self-selecting surveys are very well known to be statistically meaningless for a whole host of reasons. There's a reason they never get reported but only proper polls do.

Self-selecting surveys are very well known to be statistically meaningless for a whole host of reasons. There's a reason they never get reported but only proper polls do.

Apart from the Daily Express of course.

I was referring to actual journalism.

If jingoistic nationalism is the only alternative then we're all fucked.

 

 

From Salmonds past and his rise through the SNP ranks since the late 70s it's clear he has moved the party to the left compared to what the SNP was back in the 50s starting with the 79 Grouping formed after the failure of revolution in 1979.

 

My point is that the independence referendum is as much the fault of the other nations within the UK namely England as the SNPs and Salmond is just to the left of labour filling in the void that they left in the 90s as the moved to the rights positions on the economy and inequality.

Edited August 7, 201410 yr by steve201

From Salmonds past and his rise through the SNP ranks since the late 70s it's clear he has moved the party to the left compared to what the SNP was back in the 50s starting with the 79 Grouping formed after the failure of revolution in 1979.

 

My point is that the independence referendum is as much the fault of the other nations within the UK namely England as the SNPs and Salmond is just to the left of labour filling in the void that they left in the 90s as the moved to the rights positions on the economy and inequality.

Regardless of the dubious left wing merits of Salmond's SNP, it's a sad indictment of the left if its only means of gaining electoral momentum is through nationalism. And, as far as an independent Scotland's concerned, it'd be especially reckless to effectively doom your largest and most economically important neighbour to being governed more often than not by a party which hardly has Scotland's interests at heart.

I dont think if Scotland became independent they would be dooming their most important economic neighbour at all. I think they would be able to make decisions which effect the people of Scotland more in Scotlands interests than a government in Westminster and work effectively with other neighbouring countries in the same way as Ireland has done since its independence in 1921.

 

Britains is still Ireland biggest trading partner except for the trade war period of DeValeras first Fianna Fail government (1933-38) when Devalera was trying to make a political point that Ireland could live by itself as Britain still dominated the relationship economically under pro British Fine Gael governments from 1922-32. In reality this period was DeValera positioning Fianna Fail as the most republican party in Ireland and thereby making them the most successful political machine on the island during the 20th century as Irish nationalist parties always firstly have to prove how 'green' they are before getting on with the serious issues of improving health and education etc.

 

An unfortunate legacy of British colonialism

Edited August 8, 201410 yr by steve201

It's certainly reckless while there are so many issues still unresolved with the potential date of independence only two years away.

Indeed but if the people speak in Sept these issues will have to be dealt with however long it takes. I personally think there will be a No vote as most Dont Knows will fear changing things.

 

Again comparing the Scottish/English Union with the Irish one in 1801 which didnt work in the long run it is clear that unions only work if everyone is an equal within the unions. Without this events will create the space for movements for change - in Scotlands case Thatcherism, in 19th century Ireland the famine was the watershed moment.

 

Irish people were never extreme republicans but events changed the course of history and created sympathy for a cause. After the famine you get the fenians, after them the constitutional Home Rule movement which for 50 years even after the will of the people was being exercised was being blocked so this inevitably leads to a rising in 1916 which the majority didnt support until they were all executed and once again the Anti-union feeling became more extreme (republicanism). And so on and so forth...

Anyone watching the debate this evening?

 

Darling doesn't seem to have been as strong tonight as he was at the last debate, Salmond seems to have ruffled him a bit, the "you can keep the pound" response will count against him and the campaign, even if it's not the 'gotcha' moment that Salmond wants to present it as.