Outside of a small group of people though, nationalistation is not something the voters who Starmer is trying to appeal to is something that they want. Too costly an exercise right now, not sure nationalising trains would be the right thing in the short term, although I do agree massively train fares should at least be overhauled. But ultimately before we nationalise anything, I think we have to upgrade the infastructure which isn't going to happen under pure public ownership.

 

The key thing at the moment is to try not to alienate the Centre voters - I read the comments as natioanlisation just is not the immediate priority right now, but that is not to say it is off the cards.

 

WROOONG!! people loved Corbyn's policies, and nationalisation is EXTREMELY popular. Sorry.

 

People paying thousands of £ a year on energy bills are exactly the sort of people Starmer is trying to attract surely as everyone is suffering now and the neoliberal economic system has been shown once again to be a failed private monopoly.

 

Everyone was happy paying their low rate competitive energy bills until costs started soaring due to a shortage. Buying out companies now just shifts the cost to us and the Government. Fixes a short term problem with a lot of extra cost, but doesn't address the countless other issues we as a country are facing. Don't get me wrong, there needs to be more support for lots of people, but nationalising the energy sector right now is not the answer imo. Not to say it's not off the table completely as I think there is merit to it to future proof this from happening again.

 

The key thing is to try not to alienate the centrist voters? NO - the key thing is to address the cost of living crisis.

 

The French have just nationalised EDF: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jul/...and-ukraine-war

 

But Labour need to get in power first? It's all very good and well saying what you want to do, but if the voters don't want it then it's not going to work.

But Labour need to get in power first? It's all very good and well saying what you want to do, but if the voters don't want it then it's not going to work.

 

Can you please stop going in to bat for the multi-billion pound profiteering energy companies? I'm sorry, but the 'now is not the time' argument is stale and completely wrong. Now is exactly the time, just look at wholesale energy prices, as suggested by Martin Lewis we could have mass civil disobedience this winter through widespread non-payment of energy bills because the price rises are just completely eye-watering with gas rising to record highs again today and London narrowly avoiding a blackout through paying almost £10K per MWh last Wednesday. This by the way is Putin's only method of leverage over the west because we've already seen through his nuclear bluff and it may yet be successful if we have a cold winter. It is driving people in to poverty, the country into a recession and making many people's lives a misery.

 

I'm not saying it will solve things overnight but it will at least allow the state to protect the most vulnerable and stop energy companies making obscene profits from war.

 

It's also a reasonably popular policy..

 

@1551489103920865280

Can you please stop going in to bat for the multi-billion pound profiteering energy companies? I'm sorry, but the 'now is not the time' argument is stale and completely wrong. Now is exactly the time, just look at wholesale energy prices, as suggested by Martin Lewis we could have mass civil disobedience this winter through widespread non-payment of energy bills because the price rises are just completely eye-watering with gas rising to record highs again today and London narrowly avoiding a blackout through paying almost £10K per MWh last Wednesday. This by the way is Putin's only method of leverage over the west because we've already seen through his nuclear bluff and it may yet be successful if we have a cold winter. It is driving people in to poverty, the country into a recession and making many people's lives a misery.

 

I'm not saying it will solve things overnight but it will at least allow the state to protect the most vulnerable and stop energy companies making obscene profits from war.

 

It's also a reasonably popular policy..

 

@1551489103920865280

 

YES YES YES!!!

 

Neoliberal Rooney will ALWAYS find an excuse not to nationalise, but his excuses right now are unbelievably flimsy. Now IS the time, amd by nationalising we son't have to deal with dharwholder profitd and other nations enriching themselves off the backs of UK households' energy bills!!

Can you please stop going in to bat for the multi-billion pound profiteering energy companies? I'm sorry, but the 'now is not the time' argument is stale and completely wrong. Now is exactly the time, just look at wholesale energy prices, as suggested by Martin Lewis we could have mass civil disobedience this winter through widespread non-payment of energy bills because the price rises are just completely eye-watering with gas rising to record highs again today and London narrowly avoiding a blackout through paying almost £10K per MWh last Wednesday. This by the way is Putin's only method of leverage over the west because we've already seen through his nuclear bluff and it may yet be successful if we have a cold winter. It is driving people in to poverty, the country into a recession and making many people's lives a misery.

 

I'm not saying it will solve things overnight but it will at least allow the state to protect the most vulnerable and stop energy companies making obscene profits from war.

 

It's also a reasonably popular policy..

 

@1551489103920865280

But this is the problem, yes nationalisation is popular and most people want it but also when you nationalise anything (especially multiple companies) just like one business acquires another it doesn't happen instantly and it is also expensive and it doesn't automatically mean people's bills will go down and if it does it will take YEARS. There is a saying in politics of the difference between a 3 second conversation, a 30 second conversation and 3 minute conversation and this is a great example of how people can believe in the principle of something but when they actually find the detail of what we need to do and how it will benefit us and how long it will take they might change their minds. Regulation is a fair and realistic ambition so companies can't take the absolute piss and enables us to take action immediately rather years than down the line. Meanwhile with the rail network it's as simple of waiting for contracts to expire and not renewing them hence why renationalisation is still on the agenda but utilities is more of a long term goal when we have the £200 billion or so and we can dare I say "win the argument"

 

The long term goal Labour need to focus on is climate change and luckily but other than that they need to concentrate on how they can help people NOW, we have an NHS backlog, a cost of living crisis, expensive childcare and schools in a state of disrepair, the country is in a different state than it was a couple of years ago so what we can offer is going to change so surely it's more important we do what we can to get into government and actually get people the help they immediately need rather than fight previous battles we lost (and badly) and shout "neoliberal" because we can't get everything we want?

I think since 2008 we have reached a tipping point just like the 1929-45 period where defending the status quo will soon no longer be possible for politicans as people see day in daily the effects of laissez faire economics on people.

Can you please stop going in to bat for the multi-billion pound profiteering energy companies? I'm sorry, but the 'now is not the time' argument is stale and completely wrong. Now is exactly the time, just look at wholesale energy prices, as suggested by Martin Lewis we could have mass civil disobedience this winter through widespread non-payment of energy bills because the price rises are just completely eye-watering with gas rising to record highs again today and London narrowly avoiding a blackout through paying almost £10K per MWh last Wednesday. This by the way is Putin's only method of leverage over the west because we've already seen through his nuclear bluff and it may yet be successful if we have a cold winter. It is driving people in to poverty, the country into a recession and making many people's lives a misery.

 

I'm not saying it will solve things overnight but it will at least allow the state to protect the most vulnerable and stop energy companies making obscene profits from war.

 

It's also a reasonably popular policy..

 

@1551489103920865280

 

Nationalism = tax increases across the board. Sure, I don't mind paying extra taxes, infact, I'd gladly pay a bit more money if it meant better services as undoubtedly the extra £40 I put in to the system would add far ore value to me and my life, but we have such a vast amount of not quite middle class to middle class voters who decide an election that don't always see it that way. Plus like with most things, the extremely wealthy always find a way to get out of paying tax. And any benefit is not going to be seen overnight to make people's lives easier. It's a popular policy, but we can only do so much. I completely agree about the costs spiralling out of control, it's horrendous but the solution to the current problem isn't to nationalise.

 

We've had one Labour victory in 40 years because our democracy is dominated by people who are self-interested, fickle, disinterested and unaware which is Truss is modelling herself on true populism rather than stickened principles. People can talk about radicalisation and a complete overhaul, but I just don't see it happening for another generation at least.

Labour has had 3 victories in the last 40 years(1997/2001/05) whereas the tories have had 3 (1983/87/2019)

Labour has had 3 victories in the last 40 years(1997/2001/05) whereas the tories have had 3 (1983/87/2019)

 

All their wins came under the “Neoliberal” Blair though of whom Starmer is trying to emulate.

John Smith, left, would ALSO have won, and Ciebyn basically wkn, even with internal sabotage and the entire media treating him as a joke, and Brexshit buoying the Tories x You can win from the left wing

@1552270140812705792

@1552325920060542976

 

lol

Edited July 27, 20223 yr by blacksquare

Starmer is absolutely ATROCIOUS

Ridiculous, a great opportunity to show them as an alternative to the Tories and what they would do differently, yet instead they're just painting themselves as no different from the government's stance. How exactly would this inspire votes from people fed up of the current government?

Labour has had 12 years & 4 elections increasingly trying to show it's very different from Tories, and guess what happened?

 

I agree that expecting an incoming Labour Gov to nationalise everything when the economy is f***ed up big time is just not realistic, priority is NHS, the poor, changing laws to look after the needy and helpless, generate income, and invest in things that are underfunded. And THEN second term come back to nationalising the service industries once people have seen a bit of competence. Bankrupting the country right away would only give Johnson-ism Farage-ism a boost all over again.

 

Re: Labour Govs. There have been 12 years of Labour governments in the last 43 years. That's a massive amount of backlog to tackle, prioritisation is the sensible approach. It's as if everyone slagging off Starmer wants to desperately try to do everything right away cos they think it'll be a one-term Labour Gov!! And if that is the case then the next mad Tory leader will just reverse everything Labour does right off the bat before people get used to the changes. Long term game plan is needed. That means

 

1. get elected

2. carry out promises and demonstrate competence and gain trust

3. using 2 expand the policies that ultimately will help people and go back to 1. Start again.

 

All I'm hearing is:

 

1. Try to do everything at once

2. That will make everything brilliant

3. Everyone will love us for it.

 

Which of course anyone can claim. Tories do that except they replace 1. with "cut taxes and attack foreigners".

It's not about doing everything at once :lol: It's about doing things bit by bit. EVERYONE knew what Blair would do over multiple terms beforehand, as it was all laid out clearly before the election. Ehat does Starmer stand for ... not being Corbyn?

 

These are the priorities:

 

1. Get elected by showing hope and actual policy

2. PR. Change the undemocratix voting system IMMEDIATELY.

3. Reverse the most-damaging Tory policies, begin investing in the NHS and the country again, ans repair our relationship with Europe to help with the cost of living crisis, and also focus on daid crisis

 

That's it. That's all to start off with. Nationalisation may take time, which is fine, but announce it is a long-teem goal.

 

 

It's not about doing everything at once :lol: It's about doing things bit by bit. EVERYONE knew what Blair would do over multiple terms beforehand, as it was all laid out clearly before the election. Ehat does Starmer stand for ... not being Corbyn?

 

These are the priorities:

 

1. Get elected by showing hope and actual policy

2. PR. Change the undemocratix voting system IMMEDIATELY.

3. Reverse the most-damaging Tory policies, begin investing in the NHS and the country again, ans repair our relationship with Europe to help with the cost of living crisis, and also focus on daid crisis

 

That's it. That's all to start off with. Nationalisation may take time, which is fine, but announce it is a long-teem goal.

 

Which is exactly what I would expect a Labour goverment to do under Starmer - if he doesn't, flush him out. But the first term would all be about stability, getting people to trust Labour and get to know Starmer properly. It's at this point I would hope Labour would lay down a more medium to longer term vision. You don't have to have all the answers to the problems on day one in the open. Haven't you realised that over the last two years the Tories have been stealing Labour's ideas? Clearly a more socialist economy is popular with the people - I would hope Labour go down this route, whilst the Tories U-turn to appease the membership.

 

Don't think Labour need to do anything with PR, suspect if they get elected in 2024 it will be part of the Lib Dems ticket to get in to a coalition.

Hmmm I don't think Starmer and Labour are exactly doing themselves loads of favours in the trust game. True, they are a comfortable 10 points ahead of the Tories in the polls and so I'm resisting getting too annoyed with them but my God is he being difficult to get enthused by. And if the Tory leader is not too Godawful and/or gets some luck, like Johnson did with the vaccine etc then I'm failing to see how Labour can win the ground game and especially against a gloves off rabid Murdoch Press/Daily Mail.

 

 

 

*.*

:cheeseblock:

Lol that's so true - and another tweet here which I feel gets Starmer's problem in one:

 

@1554119739433226240

 

And on a day when Nandy seems to go rogue re: appearing on picket lines and Truss overtakes Starmer in best PM polling by one point.

The problem is that a Labour leader has to be twice as good as a Tory leader as the Tories have the unfair system, right wing press, donations etc behind them. Johnson did so terribly that Starmer could rely on that but if Truss (because let's face it will be her) starts to outpoll Starmer and Tories retake the lead over Labour then maybe another leader is just what they need.