This is why Andrew and Vidcapper aee against a majority vote - because both have votes they would like to win- Brexit, Scot independence - which would not be favoured by 2/3s. However, it is a VERY resonable number. No matter what the BBC and Tory MPs tell you, the people HAVEN'T spoken, and the issue is still up in the air with basically a 50/50 split of the population and home nations. If you do not score 63%, but are close, well ok, wait until there is a material change or wait a few years when the voting population inevitably changes a little. If the number is FAR from a supramajority, as with Brexit or Cataluña, then there is NO need for change as what you have there is an entirely divided country. Yes, constiutional change WILL take longer, but that is democracy and that is REAL progress - it moves slowly.

And you support it because you oppose Brexit, it’s all politically motivated :lol:

No, no, I have always supported a supremajority vote in referenda. It is a logical position.

 

I accept BOTH Scottish vote AND Brexit are not settled for now.

No, no, I have always supported a supremajority vote in referenda. It is a logical position.

 

I accept BOTH Scottish vote AND Brexit are not settled for now.

Well my argument against supermajorities is the same regardless of political stance so so don’t make assumptions ta.

At that point we hadn't had a referendum about anything ever. The principle of the UK being a representative democracy was rigidly applied.

 

A flawed principle, as any policy not endorsed by the main parties, however popular it might be with the public, has no chance of becoming law. :(

 

About the only means to achieve it would be starting a new party from scratch, as happened with UKIP - and even then it took over 20 years for their influence to grow strong enough to achieve any concessions from the main parties.

 

No, no, I have always supported a supremajority vote in referenda. It is a logical position.

 

Why should a referendum need a super majority, when HOC votes which regularly cause significant change, are decided by a simple majority?

1.) It is a representative democracy. Referendum are a special circumstance.

 

2.) Oh PLEASE do not hold the UK up as some shining beacon of democracy. It SHOULD be a 2/3s vote in parliament for major constitutional change too.

 

3.) HOL should not exist.

3.) HOL should not exist.

 

Do you object to a 2nd chamber in general, or just our unelected one?

The unelected one. A second house is a great check and balance ... when elected and with appropriate powers.

Ok this just became a whole lot more real for me. The Education minister currently held on bail in Belgium with an EU Arrest warrant out for her, Clara Ponsati, is one of the people I worked for at St. Andrews. :o

 

But shook right now. She is a fab woman, an absolute riot.

https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/943972048531066881

 

So the result of the new elections hasn't changed anything, pro-independence parties still hold the majority of seats in the Catalan parliament. I think the Spanish government will have to accept the fact that the only way to solve this crisis is compromise and talks otherwise the secession movement will continue to build.

 

https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/943972048531066881

 

So the result of the new elections hasn't changed anything, pro-independence parties still hold the majority of seats in the Catalan parliament. I think the Spanish government will have to accept the fact that the only way to solve this crisis is compromise and talks otherwise the secession movement will continue to build.

 

Agreed - if governments compromise in time, then controversial votes can be avoided... ;)

 

There's not much to compromise on - they are already semi-autonomous, and unless I misunderstand the results in a referendum style vote based on total percentage (rather than scraping through on seats) then the status quo won the day. So not in any way a strong case for independence, even ignoring the people who didn't vote.

There's not much to compromise on - they are already semi-autonomous, and unless I misunderstand the results in a referendum style vote based on total percentage (rather than scraping through on seats) then the status quo won the day. So not in any way a strong case for independence, even ignoring the people who didn't vote.

 

This wasn't a referendum? Did you see police beating the shit out of voters?

 

The fact remains that a pro-independence majority has been elected in the Catalan parliament, despite the hindrance of the leadership being in jail or in exile, and on a record 84% turnout. Rajoy’s Partido Popular party are reduced to just three seats.

Edited December 22, 20177 yr by Doctor Blind

This wasn't a referendum? Did you see police beating the shit out of voters?

 

The fact remains that a pro-independence majority has been elected in the Catalan parliament, despite the hindrance of the leadership being in jail or in exile, and on a record 84% turnout. Rajoy’s Partido Popular party are reduced to just three seats.

 

No, nor did I see any Remain MP's getting murdered. Your point?

 

My point, if it were a referendum, it would have gone-ish a narrow lose for independence, because referendums dont elect based on who voted where (or else Scotland would now be staying in the EU), it's based on a total vote.

My point was that you cannot draw direct conclusions about support for independence other than to say opinion is very much divided.

 

Compromise would be to allow a fair and legal referendum on independence with a supermajority required to change the status quo - not much to ask.

This wasn't a referendum? Did you see police beating the shit out of voters?

 

The fact remains that a pro-independence majority has been elected in the Catalan parliament, despite the hindrance of the leadership being in jail or in exile, and on a record 84% turnout. Rajoy’s Partido Popular party are reduced to just three seats.

 

 

Popular Party party is how that translates :lol:

Popular Party party is how that translates :lol:

 

The Spanish do irony then!! :P

After their approach to the referendum, I'm surprised they ended up with 3 seats!

 

There's issues with the way it was handled on both sides, but Rajoy sending in the federal police to beat the shit out of people carrying out their democratic right is a disgrace.

No, nor did I see any Remain MP's getting murdered. Your point?

 

My point, if it were a referendum, it would have gone-ish a narrow lose for independence, because referendums dont elect based on who voted where (or else Scotland would now be staying in the EU), it's based on a total vote.

Actually Indy parties got more voters than the unionists in Catalonia this week, neutral parties meant they didn’t get 50%.

I have no respect for the Spanish government any longer after what happened in October!

Actually Indy parties got more voters than the unionists in Catalonia this week, neutral parties meant they didn’t get 50%.

 

But of course not all voting for independence parties would vote for independence, same as not all SNP voters in Scotland want an independent Scotland.

 

I have no respect for the Spanish government any longer after what happened in October!

 

Their heavy handedness would make more people in Catalonia want independence and also increases international sympathy with the Catalonia independence movement.