Very droll. :rolleyes:

 

Surely you must've realised I was not proposing shutting down debate on new issues raised by Brexit?

 

However, you yourself have complained about the repetitious nature of debate here - going over the same issues over & over again?

Where did *that* come from? :huh: I've never claimed I can't accept there are other viewpoints, regardless of whether or not I agree with them!

 

It is repetitive at times, however I don't want a "posting-only" red-flag-bull-waving list of articles that may be blatantly false and not allowed to point out the falseness eg the Sun forced apology for the lies it printed on behalf of the likes of Jacob Rees-Mogg who has yet to revisit his applause for the incorrect figures. There will continue to be lies and propaganda because that is all they have to go on. Printing the actual figures wouldve resulted in a "is that all?" response at best.

 

And of course as a firm believer in freedom of speech under any circumstances I'm sure you'll agree you wouldn't wish to deny anyone the right to comment.....

 

I should have said "If ONE can't accept other people's opinions on a posted article then don't post it". I'm sure you were just fed up with repeating yourself as your motive and just incidentally didn't realise it would remove the right to respond.

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean?

He was pointing out your use of the past tense “believed” rather than the present tense “believe” and was this enquiring if you no longer held your belief or had just in fact made a grammatical error.

 

Please correct me if I’m wrong Toby

Precisely - that's *all* I did - along with 17.4m others.

 

I refuse to be a scapegoat for everyone else who voted for brexit!

It’s not scapegoating to say that as a direct consequence of your action, to vote to leave the European Union, you have deprived people of their rights and citizenship. That is a consequence of the vote of every leave supporter and you are all collectively responsible.

He was pointing out your use of the past tense “believed” rather than the present tense “believe” and was this enquiring if you no longer held your belief or had just in fact made a grammatical error.

 

Please correct me if I’m wrong Toby

 

That’s it precisely. I’m guessing it’s the latter.

A Freudian slip more like.

There was a Lib Dem initiated debate on the allegations against the Leave campaign this afternoon. Just one Tory thought the matter merited saying anything. Actually, he probably didn't think it was worth bothering either, However, as he was the minster chosen for the task, he had no choice. That's how much importance the self-proclaimed "party of law and order" attach to allegations about serious breaches of the law in a crucial referendum.

There was a Lib Dem initiated debate on the allegations against the Leave campaign this afternoon. Just one Tory thought the matter merited saying anything. Actually, he probably didn't think it was worth bothering either, However, as he was the minster chosen for the task, he had no choice. That's how much importance the self-proclaimed "party of law and order" attach to allegations about serious breaches of the law in a crucial referendum.

 

Possibly something to do with both Labour and Tory controlling elites not giving a toss as long as they get what they want out of it - Brexit. Sod democracy and the majority of the country who didn't vote for it, or weren't allowed to vote for it.

 

BTW, remember all those "spongeing off the NHS lies" lies spread about EU citizens? (the citizens whose countries we can legally recharge for the cost of their care)

 

Turns out the NHS is now denying medical care to people with life-threatening diseases who came here as children in the 60's, and who have lost their passports, and despite having British spouses and children, and despite having paid taxes all their working life.

 

Evil. What a Jeremy Hunt.

He was pointing out your use of the past tense “believed” rather than the present tense “believe” and was this enquiring if you no longer held your belief or had just in fact made a grammatical error.

 

Definitely just a grammatical error!

 

It’s not scapegoating to say that as a direct consequence of your action, to vote to leave the European Union, you have deprived people of their rights and citizenship. That is a consequence of the vote of every leave supporter and you are all collectively responsible.

 

That speech rings hollow when you consider what the EU gradually stripped away from us - the supremacy of our courts; the right to decide who works here; much of our economic independence, to name three.

That speech rings hollow when you consider what the EU gradually stripped away from us - the supremacy of our courts; the right to decide who works here; much of our economic independence, to name three.

 

or, to look at it another way, the rights of British people to work and live in another 27 countries (there goes my retirement plans, I'm SO grateful to Brexiters for deciding for me that I need to stay in the UK over winters and risk shortening my life and paying out on heating bills!), the benefits of much better deals economically across the world than we could possibly get as one small country (unless you want cheap imported poisonous crap that destroy those British jobs with higher environmental standards) vs 28 countries united and a final say on occasional court cases that people can go to when going to when British courts don't give them the result they want (and still usually don't get anyway).

 

You know, the same British Courts regarded as "Enemies Of The People" by huge numbers of Brexiteers..?

 

Well that’s just factually incorrect.

 

British courts remain supreme. EU courts rule on EU law only and can and do send things back to courts in member states for resolution - see the attempts of the Scottish Whiskey Association to block minimum alcohol pricing. They claimed it was in violation of EU law. Scottish courts disagreed, SWA appealed all the way up through the system until they hit the EU Courts who promptly batted it back to Scottish courts to rule on. They only intervene on matters of EU law and it gives consistency to the application of laws that impact all of us.

 

You’ve been repeatedly told over the past few years that the UK government does not properly apply the freedom of movement rules and has never done so. The EU law does in fact allow member states to put in place certain restrictions such as requiring registration, mandating they must have a job, blocking access to benefits, deportations for unemployment over a certain period and the right to refuse entry full stop to anyone “not of a good character” or that we deem to be “unsuitable” - typically through convictions. That we fail to apply any of this law is not the responsibility of the European Union.

 

Economically we have been one of the big beneficiaries of the EU growing significantly through our membership period. Our economy is built upon imported European labour. Our trade with Europe has risen significantly and has brought great things to our businesses. The common VAT rules and the ease of movement of goods through the single market makes it very easy for our businesses to sell to a marketplace of more than 0.5bn people. The economic power of the EU (the worlds largest economy) means that it is in the strongest position in any trade negotiations ensuring that the people of Europe get the maximum possible benefits, far outweighing the best possible deal a member state could achieve alone. (Since Brexit countries have been lining up to tell us our deal won’t be as good as the one we currently enjoy under the EU)

 

The EU has never “stripped away” anything from us. We’re stronger as a nation now, we’re stronger as a continent

...and I'd add that there are already shortages of workers, that as many non-EU workers get jobs here (which is amazing considering they don't have a right to work here) which isn't going to change at all after Brexit. In fact I expect it will increase as there's no reason EU workers would choose the UK when they get more money and better rights in 27 other countries....

 

Looking forward to the rise of UKIP in 10 years time moaning about all the incoming people from the Indian Sub-continent, Asia & Africa - even if they sling them out on their hook soon as they break a leg.

Anyways, Tessa May has issued a statement that working on how we deal wioth border issues is going to take much longer than envisioned, but they can now sit down and get started thinking about it with The EU.

 

So Leave have had 10 years to come up with a workable solution and failed - choosing instead to ignore it - and nearly 2 years to get a credible suggestion sorted, but only when they realise the EU was right about absolutely everything and the UK wrong about everything do they admit it might take more time than they thought....

 

It's almost as if one side was lying and the other side wasn't....

The Sun newspaper, Daily Mail, Farage, Murdoch, Leavers et all had THIRTY YEARS to come up with alternative arrangements for everything and since 1998 to offer an alternative to the peace agreement. Where are these solutions??

Anyways, Tessa May has issued a statement that working on how we deal wioth border issues is going to take much longer than envisioned, but they can now sit down and get started thinking about it with The EU.

 

So Leave have had 10 years to come up with a workable solution and failed - choosing instead to ignore it - and nearly 2 years to get a credible suggestion sorted, but only when they realise the EU was right about absolutely everything and the UK wrong about everything do they admit it might take more time than they thought....

 

It's almost as if one side was lying and the other side wasn't....

Or, alternatively, one side knows what it's doing and the other side hasn't a clue.

moving this here:

 

Unfortunately we'll never know if Churchill's support for post-war European co-operation, had in mind political/economic union, rather than just trade.

 

I'm not the one who said "evil origins". So evil the UK Tory government begged to join and argued with the French until it did and the British people democratically decided they wanted to join.

moving this here:

I'm not the one who said "evil origins". So evil the UK Tory government begged to join and argued with the French until it did and the British people democratically decided they wanted to join.

 

Technically, they decided they wanted to remain *in* - the actual joining was presented as a fait accompli...

This sounds as if it might be an April Fool, but...

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/a...ord-with-emojis

Since there is still so much ongoing discussion over the referendum : I thought it might be worth posting a link to the text of the gov'ts referendum leaflet for reference, so there can be no dispute of what it said.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/...sion-for-the-uk

You voted Leave; therefore, you voted in favour of depriving us of our EU citizenship. It really is as simple as that.

 

Ah, but if the result had gone the other way, I would still have an EU Citizenship that I did not want...