How are MPs betraying their voters? Their duty is to act in what they believe to be in the best interests of their constituents and the rest of the country. They are not delegates.

 

Let's just see what the voters really think of them at the next elections!

Let's just see what the voters really think of them at the next elections!

 

OK, some consensus here.

 

Leave won by a very thin margin. There is only one way to remain in the EU. There is however many, many ways to leave the EU. Please stop the “betrayal of the people” cliche rhetoric. The reason people voted to leave vary considerably. No Deal is treating the result like it was a 100% win. The real betrayers are these overly privileged right wing ERG members who support Brexit so it means things become less regulated and they can basically do all the fiddling they wish.

 

Norway had a referendum in 1994 and the result to join was similar to ours. They understood, whilst it didn’t win, they’re was clearly a desire to join so they compromised by creating the Norway model. That is how you exercise democracy, not this cliff edge BS you seem to support.

Edited April 8, 20196 yr by ScottyEm

OK, some consensus here.

 

Leave won by a very thin margin. There is only one way to remain in the EU. There is however many, many ways to leave the EU. Please stop the “betrayal of the people” cliche rhetoric. The reason people voted to leave vary considerably. No Deal is treating the result like it was a 100% win. The real betrayers are these overly privileged right wing ERG members who support Brexit so it means things become less regulated and they can basically do all the fiddling they wish.

 

Norway had a referendum in 1994 and the result to join was similar to ours. They understood, whilst it didn’t win, they’re was clearly a desire to join so they compromised by creating the Norway model. That is how you exercise democracy, not this cliff edge BS you seem to support.

 

You got all that from 'Let's just see what the voters really think of them at the next elections!' :huh:

Just because the process isn't easy, is not a reason not to do it - after all, we knew the EU would make it as hard as possible, right from the start. What was not obvious though, was that our own MP's would in many cases betray their voters, and also make it as hard as possible.

The vote leave lot said this would be the easiest trade deal in history to negotiate. Leaving the eu would be simple, quick and easy. Nobody ever said anything about it being a challenge. They all said that French farmers and German car makers would ensure that we would get what we wanted and how they need us more than we need them

 

:thinking:

The vote leave lot said this would be the easiest trade deal in history to negotiate. Leaving the eu would be simple, quick and easy. Nobody ever said anything about it being a challenge. They all said that French farmers and German car makers would ensure that we would get what we wanted and how they need us more than we need them

 

:thinking:

 

No-one really believed it would be that easy, except perhaps the extreme-right who would have voted out no matter what.

Edited April 10, 20196 yr by vidcapper

No-one really believed it would be that easy, except perhaps the extreme-right who would have voted out no matter what.

 

Telepathy skills again.....

 

Good to see you admit they were basically lying through their teeth though. Must be why when I say I didn't vote for Brexit or fall for their lies, leave-voters get very angry suddenly at me. Cos as I recall it none of them said at the time that they believed the lies were anything but the truth and that it would be a complete nightmare, would go on for years, and that they'd vote for it anyway even knowing that the Hard Brexiteers would all bail on their promises. But then, rewriting history is what Brexiteers DO. It's in the JD.

Telepathy skills again.....

 

Good to see you admit they were basically lying through their teeth though. Must be why when I say I didn't vote for Brexit or fall for their lies, leave-voters get very angry suddenly at me. Cos as I recall it none of them said at the time that they believed the lies were anything but the truth and that it would be a complete nightmare, would go on for years, and that they'd vote for it anyway even knowing that the Hard Brexiteers would all bail on their promises. But then, rewriting history is what Brexiteers DO. It's in the JD.

 

Whatever.

 

Lets go another direction - do you think *I* want Brexit only because I believed the 'lies' of the campaign?

A referendum held in Switzerland in 2016 has been declared invalid because the "facts" given to voters were wrong. Maybe somebody can think of a case elsewhere where the same ruling might be applied.

 

As for all the rubbish about how easy the process of leaving would be, if the Leave campaign didn't think the message was effective, why did they keep repeating it?

Whatever.

 

Lets go another direction - do you think *I* want Brexit only because I believed the 'lies' of the campaign?

 

You have never said that so no. You did however try to argue that it was all Project Fear and we'd see in 2 years how right you were. So either you were duped, or were knowingly supporting liars. I would totally have respected any leaver (like my brother) who said, when I argued it was going to be a holy mess and cock-up and hurt poor people and risk the future of his children, and I quote "I don't care!"

 

At least that isn't pretending it was going to be good for the country, it was all just due to hatred/dislike of the EU.

 

PS as ive said many many many times, I know people who WERE taken in by the claims of the illegally-financed, illegally-obtained personal data and millionaire-backed Leave campaign groups, and voted in good faith that it would be good for the NHS and good for the country. I know others who just voted for it "for a change" and to give Cameron & his government a kick up the arse.

 

So now there's an extension given by the EU until 31st October. Wonderful, six more months of can-kicking and making the process of how to leave the most important topic while the government remains ineffectual. I guess... not no deal, although this I'd say does kill that option pretty stone dead in terms of viability, extensions will probably continue be given to ensure it is avoided.

 

May still thinks it's possible to get her deal through and leave in May, which seems ridiculous, so I guess we'll return in October for the next round of edging up against the deadline like a bad university student. After the European elections.

You have never said that so no. You did however try to argue that it was all Project Fear and we'd see in 2 years how right you were. So either you were duped, or were knowingly supporting liars. I would totally have respected any leaver (like my brother) who said, when I argued it was going to be a holy mess and cock-up and hurt poor people and risk the future of his children, and I quote "I don't care!"

 

At least that isn't pretending it was going to be good for the country, it was all just due to hatred/dislike of the EU.

 

On a side issue, I don't have any children, so there is a bit of that 'don't care' factor.

 

As I've said before though my opinions of the EU (or what it then was) were formed in the 80's, when it proved to have more ambitions than just the trading bloc it purported to be, instead a ambitious, power-hungry conglomerate. :(

 

So now there's an extension given by the EU until 31st October. Wonderful, six more months of can-kicking and making the process of how to leave the most important topic while the government remains ineffectual. I guess... not no deal, although this I'd say does kill that option pretty stone dead in terms of viability, extensions will probably continue be given to ensure it is avoided.

 

I look forward to the Euro-elections - I believe they will show that Leavers are not as quiescent as Remainers like to believe. Just because we don't go on marches, or sign petitions, doesn't mean we aren't there.

As I've said before though my opinions of the EU (or what it then was) were formed in the 80's, when it proved to have more ambitions than just the trading bloc it purported to be, instead a ambitious, power-hungry conglomerate. :(

 

I look forward to the Euro-elections - I believe they will show that Leavers are not as quiescent as Remainers like to believe. Just because we don't go on marches, or sign petitions, doesn't mean we aren't there.

 

As opposed to our government, which is definitely not made up of ambitious, power-hungry politicians of course. At least with a bigger organisation there are more checks and balances in the whole thing and the events of the past few months have shown that the current form of the EU shows more care towards its citizens, which still includes the Brits, than our current government ever will.

 

I suppose we will see on that front once the campaigns actually begin.

As opposed to our government, which is definitely not made up of ambitious, power-hungry politicians of course. At least with a bigger organisation there are more checks and balances in the whole thing and the events of the past few months have shown that the current form of the EU shows more care towards its citizens, which still includes the Brits, than our current government ever will.

:rofl:

As opposed to our government, which is definitely not made up of ambitious, power-hungry politicians of course. At least with a bigger organisation there are more checks and balances in the whole thing and the events of the past few months have shown that the current form of the EU shows more care towards its citizens, which still includes the Brits, than our current government ever will.

 

I suppose we will see on that front once the campaigns actually begin.

 

I agree, and re elections people like me will be out making our views clear too, so let's see which viewpoint is stronger at getting people off their arses to vote for something they either do or don't support......

remember that illegally financed referendum? Looks like it was actual fake propaganda to boot if this is confirmed....

 

https://www.channel4.com/news/revealed-how-...migrant-footage

https://unherd.com/2019/04/have-the-remaine...st-perspective/

 

?? That article. Both sides need to stop polarisation of politics before we get even more divided, but it's the Remainers who are are losing perspective because they're resorting to emotional arguments? Written by a man whose claim to fame is a book entitled 'National Populism: The Revolt Against Liberal Democracy'? That's a right-winger masquerading as a centrist and it's quite rich because right populism is built entirely on thoughts, feelings, uncorroborated evidence and demonisation of the other side, but the left is 'supposed' to act in good faith. The right has free reign.

 

Liberal catastrophisers is an incredibly ridiculous phrase when you think of the ways Leavers have irrationally demanded that we leave the EU, the same with the call to assess things rationally, when Johnson et al promised people the world.

 

So no. No, we haven't lost perspective. The frustrations of years of political life being wasted on this fruitless and unnecessary endeavour has made some of us a little emotional. But seriously, be very wary of any article that claims to be rational and that both sides are bad, while simultaneously predicating its premise on the left making bad arguments.

Yeah I don't have the energy to engage with Matthew Goodwin anymore.

Edited April 25, 20196 yr by Harve

Definitely the first time I've noticed his name then, I can see getting tired of pointing out what's wrong with discourse like that very quickly.

Liberal catastrophisers is an incredibly ridiculous phrase when you think of the ways Leavers have irrationally demanded that we leave the EU, the same with the call to assess things rationally, when Johnson et al promised people the world.

 

So no. No, we haven't lost perspective. The frustrations of years of political life being wasted on this fruitless and unnecessary endeavour has made some of us a little emotional. But seriously, be very wary of any article that claims to be rational and that both sides are bad, while simultaneously predicating its premise on the left making bad arguments.

 

'Fruitless and unnecessary' - hardly. :huh:

 

At the very least it has allowed a large section of the electorate whose views have been ignored for decades, to have their say!