Oh fun. Dom and the ‘Senior Tory source’ are back again 🙃

At least there's going to be certainty. If Labour or a Lab/SNP Coalition was in charge today we'd be having a second referendum and possibly not leaving the EU at all.

 

Yes, we have certainty that either the UK will be blindly accepting whatever terms the EU propose, or a future trading relationship that is so bare and limited that it will undeniably do great damage to the UK.

 

We are certain that we are totally and utterly fucked. But at least we've got that certainty.

No deal it is then 😟

I thought with the ERG at bay now, Johnson might adopt a more liberal Brexit. Ahh annoying but nothing you can do now except accept it, get ready for an even greater divide in the country with the gap when shite inevitably goes wrong. I guess the saving Grace in all this is the housing market temporarily crashes enough to take full advantage of. Hopefully it's the sweet tears of a Brexiteer when 40% crashes off the market value of today.

I thought with the ERG at bay now, Johnson might adopt a more liberal Brexit. Ahh annoying but nothing you can do now except accept it, get ready for an even greater divide in the country with the gap when shite inevitably goes wrong. I guess the saving Grace in all this is the housing market temporarily crashes enough to take full advantage of. Hopefully it's the sweet tears of a Brexiteer when 40% crashes off the market value of today.

 

Anyone thinking that Boris Johnson is now going to pivot back to being the liberal one-nation Tory that won him the London mayoralty twice is just deluded IMO.

 

He still has to keep the ERG on side (they can still push a vote on the numbers) but regardless of this, the moderate Conservatives have been purged from the party and those in control now are the ones that were the engine behind Vote Leave.

 

As Lewis Goodall says:

 

@1206698701634322435

Given that its been proven numerous times that lack of education correlated strongly with pro Brexit views and voting, and the adjacent fact that there are yet to be offered *any* tangible benefits of leaving the EU, I don't see anything wrong with the statement.

 

Putting down your opponents is not a pleasant tactic though, and as Hilary Clinton previously found out, it can & does backfire...

Explains why her opponent got elected on entirely that platform and continues to make up derogatory names for anyone he sees as a threat... no, wait it doesn't do anything of the sort.

 

~~

 

@1206857249001529344

 

Even quicker than I'd thought. All that certainty paying dividends.

Explains why her opponent got elected on entirely that platform and continues to make up derogatory names for anyone he sees as a threat... no, wait it doesn't do anything of the sort.

 

~~

 

@1206857249001529344?s=20

 

Even quicker than I'd thought. All that certainty paying dividends.

 

I consider politicians 'fair game' (within reason) as they are public figures, but not ordinary voters as they have no way to directly defend themselves (only through the ballot box).

Fair game for derogatory names?

 

Politicians are having death threats, offices attacked and of course, we shouldn’t forget what happened in 2016. All assisted by the volatile nature some people within politics act within.

 

There’s a difference between criticising policies, explaining why they wouldn’t work and personal attacks and volatile language used to, or contributing to stirring up hate and anger.

Its tit for tat. Why are leftwing people always expected to be the only adult in the room while rightwingers carry on with all manner of tantrum if things don't go exactly their way?

 

Frankly I'd rather not mince words & think the English tendency towards excessive politeness has a lot to answer for with where the discourse has ended up and what kinds of people get politely platformed and consulted.

Edited December 17, 20195 yr by JingleBellJüpes

Fair game for derogatory names?

 

Politicians are having death threats, offices attacked and of course, we shouldn’t forget what happened in 2016. All assisted by the volatile nature some people within politics act within.

 

There’s a difference between criticising policies, explaining why they wouldn’t work and personal attacks and volatile language used to, or contributing to stirring up hate and anger.

 

Of course not - that's why I said 'within reason'. I certainly don't condone sending dead rats, death threats. etc.

Its tit for tat. Why are leftwing people always expected to be the only adult in the room while rightwingers carry on with all manner of tantrum if things don't go exactly their way?

 

Frankly I'd rather not mince words & think the English tendency towards excessive politeness has a lot to answer for with where the discourse has ended up and what kinds of people get politely platformed and consulted.

So the answer now is just to fire abuse at each other?

 

The left are not always innocent parties in terms of abuse.

Of course not - that's why I said 'within reason'. I certainly don't condone sending dead rats, death threats. etc.

But opening it up and saying everything is ‘fair game’ leads to those actions...

 

As I stated in my post, there’s a different in the language that can be used to create an actual debate rather than just attacks and name calling.

Anyway the no-extension clause is likely just another stunt to show he means business and further set him up as the Brexit guy. Anything can be repealed in our law, especially with such a large majority and so you can’t bind Parliament like that unless you weren’t to have to votes.

So the answer now is just to fire abuse at each other?

 

The left are not always innocent parties in terms of abuse.

 

No, but I would generally categorise leftist anger as a less common reaction to the dangers of extremists. Through social media, those can be signal boosted far more than the many reactions on the right, which is littered with systemic racism and phobias. Left anger is anger at systemic injustice, right anger is anger at specific groups of people. I would not consider there to be an equivalence between the two sides as things stand, which is why it is deeply concerning that mainstream media currently downplays right-wing phobias and signal boosts left infighting and hypocrisy.

 

I agree with your assessment on Johnson's no-deal pivoting, it's hot air to his supporters, but it shows the cracks. I think it's pleasing news for the EU, they can get him to give up more. Which means more likely than not 'vassal statehood', making the ERG apopleptic. As no-deal just will never happen, I reckon forces will do a lot to keep making it an impossibility.

So Brexit already promising to be a mess in 2020 then, if the WAB gets through with this new amendment. No deal vs extension battle will once again come into play in 2020. Although it remains to be seen how many Conservatives will oppose a no deal and if it'll have much of an effect given their majority.

 

The only way for Boris to get a trade deal done quickly would be to accept most terms/conditions from the EU and maintain a close relationship with keeping the UK in the single market. A lot of people seem under the impression of "get a Canada-style deal" but it isn't that easy. Especially as the UK is coming from a position whereby it's so closely tied to the EU, much more so than Canada has ever been.

 

So Brexit already promising to be a mess in 2020 then, if the WAB gets through with this new amendment.

 

 

Hopefully it will get through on Friday afternoon and the MP's can then have a nice Christmas break like the rest of us. Boris will open the debate at 10.30 am and it will be closed by the Brexit Secretary.

 

Just the one vote on Friday to say the Commons passes it in principle. I hope Boris talks tough, especially firmly putting down any Labour or Lib-Dem opposition to Brexit as the voters have spoken and said who's Brexit policy they want.

Edited December 17, 20195 yr by Crazy Chris-tmas

I mean... sure. Brexit is the Tory party's mess now. Let them reap what they sow.

 

As long as the other MPs get their own chance to express and continue to fight for the beliefs of the majority of voters who did not endorse Johnson's deal by voting for him.

I mean... sure. Brexit is the Tory party's mess now. Let them reap what they sow.

 

As long as the other MPs get their own chance to express and continue to fight for the beliefs of the majority of voters who did not endorse Johnson's deal by voting for him.

 

 

Well they will as it's a 5 -6 hour debate I believe.

 

I wish people would stop saying it'll be a mess. It's almost as if all you Remainers want it to fail and be a mess. Well I think it'll be a huge success. Imagine a man chained in a filthy rat infested dungeon since 1973 suddenly being released.

I wish people would stop saying it'll be a mess.

 

 

It's going to be a huge mess.

Well they will as it's a 5 -6 hour debate I believe.

 

Imagine a man chained in a filthy rat infested dungeon since 1973 suddenly being released.

 

Wat