On real consequences to people actually still involved in American politics, I'm interested to see that some Senate Democrats have officially filed an ethics complaint into Josh Hawley and Ted Cruz' actions surrounding the attempted Capitol insurrection.

 

Still of the view that they should be expelled for this, them and perhaps some members of Congress if those are also found guilty. Make an example out of them.

 

If things were as they should be, they should be removed from office and banned from running again for their roles. Much as in the case of Trump, they are directly linked to what happened. If we let elected officials incite and foment fear and terror against a democratic government stand, then that's a scary precedent. They won't be though. I imagine, if anything, it'll be a not so stern telling off and that'll be it. Cruz 2024 etc.

Also re. the point of belief vs fact. I feel sorry for people who believe the election was stolen, in part because after 2016 I fully appreciate it is a gut punch watching a candidate you support lose (and yes, much as has been said I am not directly impacted, but was fully invested), but more so because it's an almost cult like position to take. There is no evidence of it being stolen whatsoever. It has been roundly and resolutely debunked by every level of government in the US, lawmakers, lawyers, everyone and yet Trump says it, therefore it must be true. I can't pretend to understand how or why people feel more comforted by his lies and deceit, but proper outreach needs to happen so policymakers etc actually DO, so this can never happen again.

Or, you know, reading a book could also help.

He didn't go because he honestly and truly believes the election was stolen from him. Would you have gone if you truly believed that and thought Biden shouldn't have been sworn in? I wouldn't have either. People have principles. I know a man along our street, a black cabbie, who's wife says was in tears yesterday and couldn't bear to watch any news. He firmly believes it was stolen too.

 

Are you sure that black cabbie isnt just you giving your opinion Chris? It’s nothing to do with principles - all the FACTS show Biden won easily it wasn’t even particularly close, was it!?

Are you sure that black cabbie isnt just you giving your opinion Chris? It’s nothing to do with principles - all the FACTS show Biden won easily it wasn’t even particularly close, was it!?

 

 

No it's not and I resent that accusation. Have mentioned Mick before. He's permanently banned from Twitter and Facebook. No it wasn't that close in the end. I think without Covid Trump would have won.

 

Does anyone think Biden would have won in 2016? I think he'd have beaten Trump.

Edited January 23, 20214 yr by common sense

No it's not and I resent that accusation. Have mentioned Mick before. He's permanently banned from Twitter and Facebook.

 

Your taxi driver friend is banned from Facebook and Twitter? :o Over him posting that he believed the election was rigged?

Your taxi driver friend is banned from Facebook and Twitter? :o Over him posting that he believed the election was rigged?

 

 

No because he apparently abused Dianne Abbott.

No it's not and I resent that accusation. Have mentioned Mick before. He's permanently banned from Twitter and Facebook. No it wasn't that close in the end. I think without Covid Trump would have won.

 

Does anyone think Biden would have won in 2016? I think he'd have beaten Trump.

He probably wouldn't. It was the absolute disaster that was the Trump administration and the current tension in the US that got the democrats the kick under their arse and a lot of the voters to actually vote

He probably wouldn't. It was the absolute disaster that was the Trump administration and the current tension in the US that got the democrats the kick under their arse and a lot of the voters to actually vote

 

 

Well I don't want to hark back too much to the past but Hillary did win the popular vote and think the emails sunk her. Was reading some US political forums late last night and that's a commonly held view. I think Biden would have beaten her Trump easily.

Edited January 23, 20214 yr by common sense

'commonly held view' based on a single internet forum. I can't. :')

'commonly held view' based on a single internet forum. I can't. :')

 

 

No, many US political forums actually. Those pesky emails. :D Plus she's not a very nice person. The Secret Service said that in their various books by ex agents.

Well I don't want to hark back too much to the past but Hillary did win the popular vote and think the emails sunk her. Was reading some US political forums late last night and that's a commonly held view. I think Biden would have beaten her Trump easily.

 

Based on what exactly?

 

Biden was able to capitalise on what was largely an anti-Trump vote. That just simply hadn't had time to build in 2016 so I don't see what reason he would have flipped Pennsylvania, Georgia etc. back then? Counterfactuals are impossible to prove so I'm not a huge fan - but you agree that Bernie Sanders probably wouldn't have beaten Trump in 2016 against the opinion of Michael, so why are you so sure that Joe Biden would have?

He didn't go because he honestly and truly believes the election was stolen from him. Would you have gone if you truly believed that and thought Biden shouldn't have been sworn in? I wouldn't have either. People have principles. I know a man along our street, a black cabbie, who's wife says was in tears yesterday and couldn't bear to watch any news. He firmly believes it was stolen too.

 

Am I a bad person for being happy in these people's misery?

Probably.

No, many US political forums actually. Those pesky emails. :D Plus she's not a very nice person. The Secret Service said that in their various books by ex agents.

 

And Trump was?!!

 

I think Democrats got to comfy after Obama (first POC president) and thinking 'Oh now America is so liberal, let's move ahead and elect the first female president' and totally ignoring the fact that midwest states hated the fact that Obama (POC) got second term and they did everything they could to not let US first female president happen right after first POC president!!!

 

And some millions of democrats were just sleeping and did not go out and vote!!

Based on what exactly?

 

Biden was able to capitalise on what was largely an anti-Trump vote. That just simply hadn't had time to build in 2016 so I don't see what reason he would have flipped Pennsylvania, Georgia etc. back then? Counterfactuals are impossible to prove so I'm not a huge fan - but you agree that Bernie Sanders probably wouldn't have beaten Trump in 2016 against the opinion of Michael, so why are you so sure that Joe Biden would have?

 

Biden is more centrist than Sanders so would have done better against Donald Trump than him. That's why he defeated Sanders in the Democrat primaries for the 2020 Election.

 

As for whether Biden would have done better than Hillary Clinton did in the 2016 election, I think he would have, Hillary just seemed unfortunately to be a slightly divisive politician, maybe because her husband had been president before and the concept of dynasty presidents are disliked by many (see also Jeb Bush not doing too well in the Republican primary in 2016).

Edited January 23, 20214 yr by TheSnake

Based on what exactly?

 

Biden was able to capitalise on what was largely an anti-Trump vote. That just simply hadn't had time to build in 2016 so I don't see what reason he would have flipped Pennsylvania, Georgia etc. back then? Counterfactuals are impossible to prove so I'm not a huge fan - but you agree that Bernie Sanders probably wouldn't have beaten Trump in 2016 against the opinion of Michael, so why are you so sure that Joe Biden would have?

 

 

Hmm, encumbent VP, very popular although one or two gaffes.

Plus she's not a very nice person. The Secret Service said that in their various books by ex agents.

Great to see you dealing with facts and not making it personal. Oh wait

Biden is more centrist than Sanders so would have done better against Donald Trump than him. That's why he defeated Sanders in the Democrat primaries for the 2020 Election.

 

As for whether Biden would have done better than Hillary Clinton did in the 2016 election, I think he would have, Hillary just seemed unfortunately to be a slightly divisive politician, maybe because her husband had been president before and the concept of dynasty presidents are disliked by many (see also Jeb Bush not doing too well in the Republican primary in 2016).

 

That's not what happened and you know it. Bernie destroys Trump in all head to head match-ups. Centrists went on about how he would lose Florida... but so did Joe. They said the Republicans would call him a communist... That's what they said about Joe anyway lol.

 

Joe is more popular than Hillary, was a sitting VP, and I do think sexism played at least a small part in Hills' EC loss, too. She was also seen as corrupt and had email-gate. Seeing as the margins were really narrow and with all of that going against Hillary, then Biden would probably have won.

Certainly think when dealing with a trump a more principled heart on your sleeve style opponent like Sanders would have been better than a centrist establishmentarian like Clinton.

That's not what happened and you know it. Bernie destroys Trump in all head to head match-ups. Centrists went on about how he would lose Florida... but so did Joe. They said the Republicans would call him a communist... That's what they said about Joe anyway lol.

 

Yes but America is still too right wing for Sanders to have won I think. Trump would have easily been able to portray Sanders as a communist (of course he isn't one really) which he tried to do and it didn't really work with Biden.

Edited January 23, 20214 yr by TheSnake