I really didn't like this episode, it started off fine but then ended up showcasing all of RTD's weaknesses and became brderline annoying.

 

It started off with a decent premise but took an iconic character from the show's history and stripped him of all his previous menace and played him for laughs and forgot to include anything resembling a decent plot, and after that it just went downhill. The plot was non-existent and could be written on the proverbial postage stamp and the attempts at fan service were lacking in any meaning. The return of Mel felt like an attempt to shoe horn in a classic series companion but they picked probably the most hated of all and then forgot to give it any reasonance or purpose. That could have been a nameless anybody with alomost the same lines.

 

Credit to Neil Patrick Harris for giving it his all but he deserved so much better. The Toymaker was orginally a powerful entity that was a serious threat but here we had a character played mainly for laughs. When your episode's big set piece is basically a dance routine for an old Spice Girls track you're in trouble and just pandering to a specific audience. Harris is a good enough actor to have really leaned in to the character's darker side but the script instead decided to go with silliness in favour of threat. It completely evaporated any the tension they had built up (which was there despite the weird choice of a crap German accent) and it became almost Pythonesque.

 

Tate and Tennant I cannot fault, and their chemstry was the only real plus in the episode, but David must have been dying inside when he saw that cop out of an ending. RTD simply cannot commit to any resolution of note. He wilfully avoids anything with serious or deeper meaning as much as possible. There was a real opportunity to give 14 a reason to exist but it was lightly brushed over with some crap about 'just living a normal life'. This robs The Doctor of his core essence - he's an adventurer (not a superhero) who exists to discover new things, and is often out of his depth. The shift to him trying to follow this path is jarring and out of character.

 

As for 15... too early to say but I felt he was poorly served by a bad episode, a stupidly contrived bi-generation (seriously just kill 10 off) for his introduction and a terrible game catch to kick off his tenure.

I have no knowledge of the actor from prior, but initial thoughts weren't great. He did seem a bit smug and lacking in depth but I can run with that if it is written well. There's no reason The Doctor should be likeable so that's fine but I did get the impression that he was far less alien than he should be, and may lean in to RTD's worst flaws.

 

We will reserve judgemant for now.

Overall, these three episodes have been a reminder of a time long gone but a bit like getting back together with an ex - it's fun for a while but ultimately things are not what they were. You've moved on and it's all a little underwhelming.

 

Hmm, actually agreed with all of this!! I tolf you all months ago about this arrogant, arrogant Doctor. His smugness radiates out from him the screen. The companion with him is also UNBELIEVABLY arrogant. I agree about him lacking depth, too; he just plays the same charactet as in Sex Ed. RTD said he was the best audition for a Doctor ever ... and then gives us THAT smug, surface-level performance, soooo... what audition were you watchin, RTD, for us all to be sayin the same??

I think it takes a god tier batshit energy to have that much hatred for an actor that has spent less than half an hour in the role and another that hasn’t even appeared on screen yet.

Depth? There's not been a chance for any depth yet, and we haven't even seen Millie in the role at all. Give it a rest Meekul x

She was behaving like a diva on set!!! Doctor Who has made people Hollywood stars, and this is how she acts? And no, I'm not just bitter we only get three episodes with Donna and 14, even though they are two of the best to ever do it and we shoulda had three more seasons with them... Totally UNFAIR!!! ...Although tbf, she will have to be pretty awful to be worse than Bradley bloody Walsh... and so far ,15 is CLEARLY better than breathy, boring Jodie - better acting, presence and fits the role better... But we already have three seasons of unwatchably boring Doc Who episodes, so why not give us three seasons with 14 and Donna to make up for it?? How can we trust she won't be as boring as "the fam"? ? We know for a fact that Donna isn't...

 

God sake, now I am remembering how bad Jodie and co were!! We had bloody Bradley Walsh... So they will be an improvement on them. There is no way she will be worse than Bradley Walsh! But at the same time, we deserve more Tenant and Donna!!! Lord almighty, we had Bradley Walsh!!!!! I'd forgotten about that. :cheeseblock: Okay, yes, these two will easily be better than that. But replacing 14 and Donna is not it.

Michael - just stop it. We’re not here for your judgmental rants after seeing someone for all of about 30 minutes.

 

Joseph asked you politely above to give it a rest but if you continue to just derail threads with negative nonsense we’ll simply delete your replies.

 

:hitler:

I've just had a re-watch of it and I still feel largely the same as I said previously but also picked up on something that kind of highlights one of the issues I have with RTD.

 

The scene with the TARDIS having a ramp newly installed. It's clearly done with good intentions and suggesting that certain wheelchair bound characters can enter and exit the TARDIS freely, without the need for answering awkward questions later on.

Unfortunately RTD is so keen on getting this in there and pointing it out, that he's forgotten to write in that it always had a ramp function. After all, K-9 was quite capable of coming and going as he pleased, on his own.

 

As showrunner, I feel he really ought to have a better grasp of the show's continuity and maybe think through some of his ideas more thoroughly. It is a minor quibble I know but it's quite sloppy.

 

Still, at least the show is heading in the right direction at the moment and we will see how 15 pans out next year (Christmas episodes are often hit and miss). If it goes down badly they can always bring Tennant back again.

Michael, Jodie was a phenomenal actor. Chibnall was the issue there.

Michael, Jodie was a phenomenal actor. Chibnall was the issue there.

 

I'm actually not sure on that. I saw somr clips on youtube recently, of all the doctors, and she had no pathos and seemed out of breath (smoker?). Ghe writing was ABOMINABLE, but Bradley Walsh is not a good actor bad writing or not... Of course, NO ACTOR could do much with Jodie's script at all, but the acting she did do with it felt flat.

I've just had a re-watch of it and I still feel largely the same as I said previously but also picked up on something that kind of highlights one of the issues I have with RTD.

 

The scene with the TARDIS having a ramp newly installed. It's clearly done with good intentions and suggesting that certain wheelchair bound characters can enter and exit the TARDIS freely, without the need for answering awkward questions later on.

Unfortunately RTD is so keen on getting this in there and pointing it out, that he's forgotten to write in that it always had a ramp function. After all, K-9 was quite capable of coming and going as he pleased, on his own.

 

As showrunner, I feel he really ought to have a better grasp of the show's continuity and maybe think through some of his ideas more thoroughly. It is a minor quibble I know but it's quite sloppy.

 

Still, at least the show is heading in the right direction at the moment and we will see how 15 pans out next year (Christmas episodes are often hit and miss). If it goes down badly they can always bring Tennant back again.

Sorry but this absolutely reeks of a Classic era fan just trying to find as many flaws as possible with the current/modern eras of the show just because it isn't the Classic era any more.

 

Throughout the entirety of modern Doctor Who, K-9 has never been there for modern viewers to see that it was already viable for him, or others, to easily get into the TARDIS by use of a ramp. The scene in The Giggle was a breakthrough moment for disability representation in Doctor Who. For the majority of viewers watching the show now (and their likely recollection going back as far as 2005) it's not something that's been addressed. And to question RTD's understanding of Doctor Who continuity and lore is somewhat baffling to me lmao, because he's decided to address it with a wheelchair user present and show them that the TARDIS has been modified so that she and others can access it easily, as opposed to a throwaway line like 'oh yes it already had a ramp because a metal dog I used to travel with 40 years ago managed to get in no problem'. I think we're in the safest possible hands with RTD, who has a very clear understanding of what the show has already done, what it can do, and what it will do moving forward with representation.

The problem with RTD is the silly monster of the week-style episodes, as with the one from the other week, with the giant clones. That episode could have been done so much better, if they'd linked it ro Midnight/ that hodden creature of Capaldi's run, or donr it with more spookiness. As is, it came off a bit silly.

Maybe David Tennant wasn’t contracted to do another three full series is that he didn’t want to do it. He clearly loves the role but he could hardly be blamed for wanting to concentrate on other projects.

Maybe David Tennant wasn’t contracted to do another three full series is that he didn’t want to do it. He clearly loves the role but he could hardly be blamed for wanting to concentrate on other projects.

I don't think Tennant staying was ever on the cards. It was a callback for the anniversary with a look to setting the future up. I adore Tennant and have loved having him back, but the show would fall up its own arse if Tennant returned full time imo.

I don't think Tennant staying was ever on the cards. It was a callback for the anniversary with a look to setting the future up. I adore Tennant and have loved having him back, but the show would fall up its own arse if Tennant returned full time imo.

I agree. Tenant was a brilliant Doctor but the show cannot rely on him for ever.

Sorry but this absolutely reeks of a Classic era fan just trying to find as many flaws as possible with the current/modern eras of the show just because it isn't the Classic era any more.

 

Throughout the entirety of modern Doctor Who, K-9 has never been there for modern viewers to see that it was already viable for him, or others, to easily get into the TARDIS by use of a ramp. The scene in The Giggle was a breakthrough moment for disability representation in Doctor Who. For the majority of viewers watching the show now (and their likely recollection going back as far as 2005) it's not something that's been addressed. And to question RTD's understanding of Doctor Who continuity and lore is somewhat baffling to me lmao, because he's decided to address it with a wheelchair user present and show them that the TARDIS has been modified so that she and others can access it easily, as opposed to a throwaway line like 'oh yes it already had a ramp because a metal dog I used to travel with 40 years ago managed to get in no problem'. I think we're in the safest possible hands with RTD, who has a very clear understanding of what the show has already done, what it can do, and what it will do moving forward with representation.

 

You probably ought to be more careful about the asumptions you make.

 

I'm not a fan of 'Classic' over 'Nu-Who' particularly (some of the classic period is downright awful), I'm a fan of the show, it's ideas and its format, first and foremost. One of the reasons for that is that it has always been a source of progressive thinking and raising issues that other show's on prime time won't.

 

However, whilst I agree it was an important moment for those with disabilities to feel inclusivity, I still think it was handled clumsily, actually quite a bit of the episode was I feel but that's a side issue. I've never felt RTD is that great a writer and his continuity, even within his own tenure is dodgy. He likes to put forward ideas, can be overly silly and then go for big moments but lacks attention to previous details. I am much more on board with Moffat's take on the show for example (his early seasons are actually my second favourite period of the show, after the Hinchcliffe era). I think Moffat always understood The Doctor's contradiction of childlike wonder and weary loneliness in a way that RTD dhas never quite pulled off, for me at least. Moffat and Tenant together would have been great.

 

That said RTD is far superior to Chibnall in his characterisation and narrative as a rule.

 

You may think it's in the safest possible hands right now, and fair enough we all have our preferences and tastes, and whilst I disagree, the show isn't aimed at people like me who will pick up on these details, and to be fair I prefer a darker tone over comedy. Even so, that won't stop me drawing attention to parts of the writing/acting/effects/continuity etc. that I feel are errors, and if RTD doesn't want people to make comparisons with the old show he probably should drop the constant references (Adric this week for example).

 

I want the show to succeed and be the best it can be but to do that it really needs to be consistant and I'm not convinced RTD is the right person for that.

 

 

I agree. Tenant was a brilliant Doctor but the show cannot rely on him for ever.

 

And why not?? Star Trek has Picard and relied on him for years to build up the franchise!

Because it's using nostalgia as a replacement for decent storytelling, it's why I'm really put off Star Wars these days despite loving the original trilogy. I love Tennant, but I want see the show give us new things. Really wasn't a fan of that conclusion for his Doctor, first time Disney's presence has bugged me as they're clearly hinting at the door being open for spin offs and just diverting from canon for the sake of fan service.

 

I'm hoping Ncuti gets a better introduction in the Christmas special as the spark wasn't quite there, but to be fair, it was a pretty awkward and shoehorned regeneration and any newcomer would look a bit out of place next to Tennant.

 

It wasn't a bad episode overall though, I haven't seen the original toymaker episodes so have nothing to compare, but I think Neil Patrick Harris got the disparity between fun and menacing pretty well, definitely a bit of a rushed demise though. The corridor scene was brilliant and really tense and I really liked the idea behind the first half of that destroying the world...honestly right up until the Spice Up Your Life scene (which would've been fun if it wasn't already done better with Rasputin x) I was really on board, an episode of two halves x

Wow, I expected some discussion but you guys really went off in here huh

 

As much as I enjoyed these specials I’m not in any rush to rewatch them. Better than Chibnalls efforts, sure, but RTD seems to have this way of shoehorning his forced progressiveness in for no reason. Each episode had at least 1-2 moments where I was bordering cringing. The “binary binary - non-binary” scene, Donna’s “just let it go”, “mavity”, “wait til the boss hears about this” (or something along those lines), pointing out the wheelchair access to the Tardis, “he was so hot”, sprinkling salt to become a superstition/law of the universe(?), a weapon used to destroy a satellite immediately only harms the Doctor enough to force a regeneration when it quite clearly shouldve blasted a hole through his torso… there’s maybe more but that’s off the top of my head.

 

I don’t have a problem with the inclusivity and social awareness, but the way it’s been written into these episodes is like it’s never happened before when almost all of it has in DW. Over the years of modern who, at least, there has been acknowledgment of all these things but RTD has decided he should showcase everything all at once and as much as possible in 60 minutes. It just comes off as preachy and like it’s purposely trying to rub people the wrong way. People are getting “outraged” at “nEw DoCtOr WhO wOkE pRoPaGaNdA” which is absurd in itself because nothing in these episodes is new. It’s just been portrayed as if it is.

 

Introducing Isaac Newton and renaming gravity was a choice. On the one hand it’s interesting to see a time travellers effect on the world around them, but shouldn’t Donna be exempt from the history changing because she’s spent so long in the Tardis? The salt at the edge of the universe thing is a similar idea, but how did Kate come to know about this superstition in current time? How many other non-entity demons have come from beyond the edge and spread their superstitions to Earth?

 

My guess would be with the move to Disney+ they’ve wanted to encapsulate all the development of the last 18~ years within 3 episodes, but who knows…

 

The very end scene was very cute and all but is 14 really gonna spend his days on Earth and only hang out with two of his companions? What exactly is gonna happen the next time an alien race tries to invade Earth and 15 shows up, only to also have 14 on the same planet? 14 won’t avoid a crisis because he is the Doctor. Does Earth have a permanent protector now, and 15 will spend all his time in space? But Ruby is presumably human, so, 15 is on Earth. With 14 also there. But not doing Doctor things. Just having a family meal with a select few of his friends.

 

But anyway.. love Tennant and Tate as always. Loved seeing Wilf back as heartwrenching as it was. The basic story of Wild Blue Yonder was fantastic if you look past the absurdity of salt. NPH was a clear highlight for me overall though and I think he did a great job.

 

I went off too, sorry lol. I love Doctor Who and always have I’m just sceptical about the future based on these specials. The foreshadowing of “big boss” and the Masters return yet again felt a little like it was spending too much time trying to hook future viewers in as opposed to just straight up celebrating 60 years, but eh. Here’s to hoping Eccleston, Capaldi and Whittaker come back one day. Maybe 75th?

100% THIS to all THAT!!! :cheer:

 

I have now watched them all twice, so my post is comin too!!

Ok i could give a thorough analysis of the many reasons i hated this xmas special. Most of them would be spoilers though and im not going to waste my time on listing them all.

Gravity creating gloves. Baby eating elves on flying magic time travelling pirate ships. Preaching without any basis in reality and ignoring health and safety like carer of a bed ridden senior taking on a foster child. Parking the tardis on a road junction. Time travelling back to an event and not making sure you got there early enough. Hyperactive personal space invading touchy feely kissy male who can only get away with it cos the actor is gay

 

 

Im not prone to hyperbole when it comes to Who but i think the sickening strings during soapy moments says it all. Its been Disneyfied. The writing was not good. Need to go back to the 80s to find anything this poor. What a disappointment.

Jesus Christ, we’ve officially reached the point where bad storytelling is determined by what part of a street the TARDIS happens to be parked or land on. :cheer:

 

Also let’s not bring Ncuti’s sexuality into debating the characterisation of 15… :drama: