1 hour ago, Liam S said:

By what metric is British rich? There is non stop austerity.

Oh yeah Britain’s industries were closing… why Steve? Please tell me that one. India technically will be a rich country but it also has poverty on levels very different to Britain. These are are not small numbers. 1% of India is 25% of Britain in terms of numbers.

I mean what do you want me to do with this information? Do you think it’s inaccurate or something?

The EU saw the UK become irrelevant. It has never recovered. Tariffs are relative when India and many others use them effectively so much so Britain is celebrating getting tariffs down to seventy five percent? It’s their main tool to make sure their money stays in India. What British goods are going to be bought in India? They don’t need Britain in that way. Whiskey + 75% tariffs when many cheaper alternatives available? How or why? They won’t. You think Chinese people have low wages and can undercut um let me introduce you to India where they are 5x cheaper.

The minimum wage in the UK is 10x what they earn. There is every incentive to be in the UK and if that’s not possible they’re going to undercut so easily.

You clearly didn’t read that article. Just pure asylum is now costing over 15 billion in hotels alone without all the other costs including NHS and so forth so true cost has to be minimum double but probably much more. This is for no benefit at all. Until these problems are solved the country will always have no money.

A threat? Huh. Seems like you’ve plucked most of that from your own imagination. But feel free to elaborate because I’m not really what you’re going on about

Liam not sure what some of your points are here. There is a cap of 1,500 people and why are comparing different minimum wages? When you move countries your salary will be in comparison. There’s also a minimum salary entry, £30k I believe which doesn’t go very far. The deal grows our economy by £5bn and is inherently good, I genuinely don’t know what the problem is. One of those world famous trade deals Brexit allowed us to get but an absolute classic as no one who supports Brexit had any idea about economics.

And not read the US Trade deal, don’t think you can really say if that’s good or bad until you look what other countries get. The beef thing will be the headline I suspect but sounds like it will only be non hormone pumped products? But think the devil will be in the details for all these things.

Successful trade deal after successful trade deal, Starmer's Britain is booming.

In seriousness this initially also looks probably good. Again, Brexit sorta requires us to sign up to these, but once it's there, trade will flow and it's generally better for everyone, The US one saves jobs in the automotive and steel industries, we're the first of many countries to work with Trump's agenda, so on paper a little bit more insulated from his future insanities. Possibility for US food to hit our markets which wouldn't be good, but it doesn't look like we're lowering any of our own standards on it, so it shouldn't be the worst stuff.

Depends on how Trump's international strategy continues but while morally it's a bit stomach-churning, getting preferential access to the USA while it's like... this... is a good step for our economy.

31 minutes ago, Rooney said:

The beef thing will be the headline I suspect but sounds like it will only be non hormone pumped products? But think the devil will be in the details for all these things.

Off course it will, its probably the one potential negative. And Buzzjack's answer to Reform has already jumped on it and focussed on it aside from anything being positive.

So off course the right wing press and all those in the Cult of Reform will also jump on it to.

Edited May 8May 8 by ElectroBoy

I wouldn’t want any US foodstuffs, they are notoriously made with little standards and regulations. That was one good thing about being in the EU!

Edited May 8May 8 by Steve201

2 hours ago, Liam S said:

By what metric is British rich? There is non stop austerity.

Oh yeah Britain’s industries were closing… why Steve? Please tell me that one. India technically will be a rich country but it also has poverty on levels very different to Britain. These are are not small numbers. 1% of India is 25% of Britain in terms of numbers.

I mean what do you want me to do with this information? Do you think it’s inaccurate or something?

The EU saw the UK become irrelevant. It has never recovered. Tariffs are relative when India and many others use them effectively so much so Britain is celebrating getting tariffs down to seventy five percent? It’s their main tool to make sure their money stays in India. What British goods are going to be bought in India? They don’t need Britain in that way. Whiskey + 75% tariffs when many cheaper alternatives available? How or why? They won’t. You think Chinese people have low wages and can undercut um let me introduce you to India where they are 5x cheaper.

The minimum wage in the UK is 10x what they earn. There is every incentive to be in the UK and if that’s not possible they’re going to undercut so easily.

You clearly didn’t read that article. Just pure asylum is now costing over 15 billion in hotels alone without all the other costs including NHS and so forth so true cost has to be minimum double but probably much more. This is for no benefit at all. Until these problems are solved the country will always have no money.

A threat? Huh. Seems like you’ve plucked most of that from your own imagination. But feel free to elaborate because I’m not really what you’re going on about

Britain is one of the richest countries in the world. Why on Earth do so many people want to immigrate here then? Austerity doesn’t mean it isn’t rich, it’s the choice of governments on how to spend vast amount of money. Thing about Britain as well is that compared to say India there is a lot less of a wealth gap which is another good thing about it.

Any deinustrialisation occurred in the 80s occurred due to thatcher (of which reform are like thatcher on steroids) but had been inevitable for 40 years before that. It is what happens in developed capitalist economies and no tariffs are going to stop that, capitalism moves to countries with less labour and production costs.

Edited May 8May 8 by Steve201

3 hours ago, Liam S said:

Oh yeah Britain’s industries were closing… why Steve? Please tell me that one. India technically will be a rich country but it also has poverty on levels very different to Britain. These are are not small numbers. 1% of India is 25% of Britain in terms of numbers.

I mean what do you want me to do with this information? Do you think it’s inaccurate or something?

A threat? Huh. Seems like you’ve plucked most of that from your own imagination. But feel free to elaborate because I’m not really what you’re going on about

You know what. You don't have to be an asshole, but you are being one. I'm thinking you could do with just being told it straight up.

38 minutes ago, Steve201 said:

Britain is one of the richest countries in the world. Why on Earth do so many people want to immigrate here then? Austerity doesn’t mean it isn’t rich, it’s the choice of governments on how to spend vast amount of money. Thing about Britain as well is that compared to say India there is a lot less of a wealth gap which is another good thing about it.

Any deinustrialisation occurred in the 80s occurred due to thatcher (of which reform are like thatcher on steroids) but had been inevitable for 40 years before that. It is what happens in developed capitalist economies and no tariffs are going to stop that, capitalism moves to countries with less labour and production costs.

It’s just talk. Britain is rich in digital numbers but in reality 90% of people have limited options and limited lives. They come because it’s an upgrade for them but I’ve seen many say they came here for a better life now they’re leaving for a better life. There comes a point.

5 minutes ago, J00prstar said:

You know what. You don't have to be an asshole, but you are being one. I'm thinking you could do with just being told it straight up.

No idea what you’re going on about.

As for this US deal. Seems like not much of anything. Eradicating the digital tax for Elon Musk. Tariffs still there just lower for most things. Nothing great for either party. Certainly wouldn’t want US produce.

1 hour ago, Liam S said:

It’s just talk. Britain is rich in digital numbers but in reality 90% of people have limited options and limited lives. They come because it’s an upgrade for them but I’ve seen many say they came here for a better life now they’re leaving for a better life. There comes a point.

No idea what you’re going on about.

As for this US deal. Seems like not much of anything. Eradicating the digital tax for Elon Musk. Tariffs still there just lower for most things. Nothing great for either party. Certainly wouldn’t want US produce.

So we have immigrants who come and then leave? Surely that's a good thing with the argument you're making?? Would love people who moan about the quality of life in the United Kingdom to try living a week in a 2nd or third world country.

This deal sounds like it is exclusive to the tariffs and not a Trade Deal. It strokes Trump's ego and makes it sound like 10% tariffs will be the minimum. We get American non-hormone pumped beef and they get Rolls Royces. Reading between the lines it seems a sensible way to appease the current madness and both parties seem relatively happy.

Yeah from what I’ve been able to read online this seems to be less of a trade deal and more of a tariff equalisation deal to try and undo some of the f***ing insanity coming from the White House.

But it is trump so tbh it holds about as much weight as wet 2 ply bog roll and he’ll probably have slapped us with a new set of tariffs on all of the items in the deal before the end of the year

Part of why I have defended the government more than I expected to is that I have noticed a large amount of people fixating on the few negatives and ignoring the many positives, which is something you don't get with the wild media on this island.

Good thread linked there for reference for the good stuff this government has done so far.

remember, listing the good stuff does not absolve them of their mistakes or the bad stuff, but neither does the latter nullify the improvements they have been making.

quoting what's listed in that thread below, some of it is Labour comms stuff about policies that are yet to bear full fruit but some of it is genuinely good improvements in this country over the last 10 months:

• First country in the world to land a "trade deal" with Trump, not really a trade deal but we got lower tariffs for some critical industries with hardly any of the concessions on digital services tax or food safety that people thought would happen.

• Closed the India trade deal with a big boost for UK business and growth, yet without the visa concessions India normally expects for its trade deals. The social security arrangements are the same we have with 50 other countries.

• Saved Euston leg of HS2.

• Emerged as stable leaders of the west along with the French and Germans to shore up Ukrainian defences in the chaos Trump has unleashed. 

• Constantt reductions in waiting lists since taking office with £22.6 billion increase in day-to-day NHS spending, plus £3.1 billion in capital investment for hospitals. Waiting lists/NHS were one of the main reasons they were voted in and the records are good so far.

• £1 billion extra for urgent hospital repairs and £1.5 billion for new hospital beds.

• £6.7 billion for school infrastructure spending, for stuff like RAAC concrete and new education tech.

• GDP growth of 1% over four months since the budget, exceeding forecasts by 0.4%.March retail growth came in much stronger than expected too, next Wednesday's Q1 GDP figures will be interesting.

• Zonal energy pricing reforms are coming, the biggest shake up in our energy markets in decades which will make energy much cheaper up north and be a huge driver for investment and jobs up there as industries find cheaper energy more attractive.

• £40 billion in tax raising mostly at businesses and the wealthy to fund public services and all the infrastructure investments laid out here.

• £5 billion allocated for affordable housing and additional £2.3 billion for core school budgets, supporting infrastructure and education.

• Take over and ongoing Nationalisation of British Steel in Scunthorpe, saving jobs and the UK steel industry. Tories let other steel manufacturers go to the wall.

• £1.5 billion investment in transport infrastructure, including the Trans-Pennine upgrade and improved rail services.

• Overall infrastructure spend by end of parliament changed from the 1.6% of GDP planned by the Tories to 3.5% of GDP.

• Increase in the national minimum wage significantly above inflation which benefits the poorest.

• Wage growth in general has been above inflation and expectations.

• Recently inflation has decreased more than expected.

• Immigration down significantly on last year so far. Deporatations up significantly. Immigration reforms still ongoing.

• Launched Great British Energy, a publicly owned investment company to invest in energy projects.

• £8.3 billion committed over five years for energy infrastructure.

• £3.4 billion allocated to the Warm Homes Plan, upgrading our housing stock which is some of the oldest and most poorly insulated in the western world.

• Increases in defence spending to 2.5% of GDP by 2027, with a goal of reaching 3% in the next parliament.

• Bought army housing out of private hands, saving us billions in rent over the long term and ensuring better living conditions for service members as army housing was degrading under the private scheme we were paying billions to rent from.

• Pay uplift for many public sector workers which stopped multiple public sector strikes and saved us money.

• Overturned the ban on onshore wind.

Most important thing is until people start feeling stuff from this list, then they won't deem the government a success, though that also won't happen until a deeply concerning right-wing media push against the Labour government subsides. Which it won't.

This might be relevant in the next few weeks, an amendment to the Border and Security Bill is going up, aimed at targeting right-to-work checks in the gig economy.

Text of amendment

Impact assessment

If that passes and is properly enforced, that would be great (and indeed would be one of the more visible actions on immigration). It is, as a rarity, one area of the immigration issue where I'm pretty much fully in agreement with anti-immigration people on, gig economy companies, many of whom are making the industries they inhabit measurably worse (they're not even a low-cost version most of the time anymore), are exploiting people and getting around our employment rights laws to IMO illegally employ foreign workers. Which is excused because the onus is on the 'self-employed' person who sublets their food delivery account or similar - making Uber, Deliveroo etc. actually responsible for checking the right-to-work of everyone working for them is a gaping loophole that needs to be plugged.

These companies will always find a loophole. They’re using the new so called „chance card“ in Germany to exploit these workers and as a result a good 95% of the riders in Berlin are from SE Asia, speak no German at all and get thoroughly exploited by agencies who run these schemes for Wolt, Flink and UberEats.

I’m with you Iz, that this is a loophole that needs closed down and fast. It’s visible, would take some steam out of the far rights balloon as a consequential benefit, and ultimately is for the benefit of the workers exploited in a quasi modern slavery deal.

The Berliner did an interesting feature from the perspective of the workers

The Berliner

How Berlin's South Asian delivery workers are navigating...

Essential to Berlin's food scene, delivery workers from India, Bangladesh, Pakistan and beyond, are enduring isolation and exploitation, struggling to build a life within a flawed framework.

Big announcement of immigration crackdown today from the Labour government. Doing a lot to target net migration.

Which is completely wrongheaded, no one wants them aping Reform's lines (except Reform who are loving it), the Never Happy crowd won't change their opinions, and there's the potential for a lot of unfortunate stories to come out of this.

It's policies like doubling the amount of time it takes to get an ILR and discouraging applications for care workers that are going to hit the sorts of people we want coming to this country with insecurity (how can you fully integrate when you're spending a decade without security that your future is here?) and integrating (seven in ten of voters do not want reductions in migration for care workers!). If, IF this is accompanied with a good push to fix those industries by other means and it's visible enough to pull over swing voters who want to see some, any action on immigration it may have some good results, but I'm not sure those two requirements work together.

I work in a care home and i can tell you this is nothing but I good thing the amount of workers or agency that are completely untrained or can't speak English is absolutely disgusting and worrying. These people are only coming for visa not to do care its completely different scenario than what you are thinking. This is right and correct and should never have been allowed to happen in first place.

Imagine a 99 year old being cared by someone who can't speak a word of English and doesn't know how to care. It's wrong.

Well done Labour finally, let's see more and a bigger push l! This is heading in the right direction

Thank Christ you don’t have any power. 🫣

I believe this man might be the first PM to alienate every single voter in the country

28 minutes ago, Liam Sota said:

I believe this man might be the first PM to alienate every single voter in the country

Don't the EU already fish in our waters and vice versa? Seems like a classic feed a story in to the press for armchair warrirors to get enraged about with them already understanding it's happening.

Also a story completely irrelevant in the face of today's news about the PM's crack down on migration, for which is he getting plaudits, it's just a shame they're from the right-wing who won't vote for him anyway.

I mean, Christ, the anti-immigration lot have managed to get Starmer literally evoking Enoch Powell's rhetoric and they're still not fucking happy.

9 minutes ago, Rooney said:

Don't the EU already fish in our waters and vice versa? Seems like a classic feed a story in to the press for armchair warrirors to get enraged about with them already understanding it's happening.

Well it wouldn’t be an offer in a deal if it was already happening would it? What’s with the obsession on giving everything away? Didn’t Gordon Brown give away all the gold I read. Happy to give away manufacturing and jobs, fish, what else? The whole country is for sale it seems.

29 minutes ago, Liam Sota said:

Well it wouldn’t be an offer in a deal if it was already happening would it? What’s with the obsession on giving everything away? Didn’t Gordon Brown give away all the gold I read. Happy to give away manufacturing and jobs, fish, what else? The whole country is for sale it seems.

Of course it would, you might just extend the current deal or increase the quotas slighly to get something in return, which looks to be free cash to support out defence. Just seems the exact quote a plant would put on a day when the news is about immigration which feeds in to the people who would be attracted to vote for Reform. Funny that. I have said it before, but will say it again, manufacturing is moving towards automation.

As always, one of the many great benefits of Brexit of which everyone can name hundreds.