May 18May 18 Belated rankings:1 Austria 2 Latvia 3 Denmark4 United Kingdom 5 Finland 6 Spain 7 Germany 8 Malta 9 Switzerland 10 Armenia 11 Sweden 12 Israel 13 Netherlands 14 Greece 15 Albania 16 Lithuania 17 Luxembourg 18 San Marino 19 Estonia 20 Norway 21 Italy 22 France 23 Poland24 Iceland25 Ukraine26 PortugalSecond year in a row of Austria being my favorite entry!So impressed with the UK's entry, a risky song but worth it IMO. Loved the harmonies and tempo changes, glad it got the juries' attention at least.Big yikes at the televote, not just the Israel points but completely paying dust to UK and Switzerland, and not much better to Denmark Really enjoyed the hosts, being introduced to Hazel was especially a highlight *.* The Baby Lasagna/Käärijä collab was a highlight too!
May 18May 18 See everyone loudly moaning about Israel, this is what is helping them do well.People pushing the pro Palestine movement are really not helping themselves. They think everyone agrees with them but they couldn’t be more wrong and it shows. I know plenty of people not interested in the competition who voted for Israel.Also people moaning about political voting ruining the contest, yet very little said about Ukraine winning g their semi with that song?? Also the UK televote every single year is dominated by diaspora voting. Lithuania, Poland and Latvia are always guaranteed top points from us. Really Sweden should have been our televote winner this year based on the results. Maybe change it to one vote each??
May 18May 18 In terms of the Israel near-miss and destroying the contest forever:We were calcing live as you can work out how many votes are left to be dished out from the 2204 total point televote pool. So it got very scary when:- Estonia got a huge televote score but failed to overtake Israel. This then made it harder for everybody else to overtake. - Sweden's televote lowkey flopped but still took enough points out the pool to make it difficult for other nations to get a good enough score. 367 points up for grabs for the top 5 jury songs at that point - an Austria vs. Israel split screen felt locked in at that point.- Then Italy got an OK televote score, leaving just 228 points for the top 3 nations. If they were split broadly evenly between Austria, France and Switzerland then that's a disaster. Nothing against the entries, but for this purpose it was a relief that France only got 50 and Switzerland got 0, leaving Austria with more than enough to win.If we were to assume that Israel has a huge televote locked in then this is how an Israel win happens - there would be a bunched-up scoreboard, particularly with the jury vote, with the right side of the scoreboard still getting a respectable score. The bottom half got 466 jury points vs. 256 last year. But there's no guarantee that Israel would flop in the jury vote in the future and there's no point gaming these scenarios every year. Moral considerations for Eurovision - and more fundamentally in geopolitics - have been proven to be irrelevant but purely in the interests of self-preservation for the contest it's best for Israel to be gone.Finally, Azerbaijan's jury votes look suss - it's not necessarily the 12 to Israel, it's also that all the other entries considered favourites (Austria, Sweden, France) were completely snubbed which nobody else did.
May 18May 18 Blaming the pro Palestine movement and thinking political voting is the issue we are having with the contest is an extremely simplistic take that does not represent the reality. Should people you’re describing (including yourself I assume) look beyond their shallow bubble, they would realise a genocide is happening and Europe is ignoring it, with hypocritical EBU even promoting the aggressor after banning Russia immediately for the exact same reason. It’s an ethics issue but I guess this is not a priority for many people so yeah let’s blame people who oppose genocide instead, sounds logical and legit :’) Diaspora vote has never and will never affect the overall results on a grand scale, but no one is talking about that.
May 18May 18 23 minutes ago, eurovision4ever said:See everyone loudly moaning about Israel, this is what is helping them do well.Logical fallacy made to try to tell people to shut up, fuck off.23 minutes ago, eurovision4ever said:People pushing the pro Palestine movement are really not helping themselves. They think everyone agrees with them but they couldn’t be more wrong and it shows. I know plenty of people not interested in the competition who voted for Israel.People not interested in the competition voted for Israel you say? Very interesting admittance.23 minutes ago, eurovision4ever said:Also people moaning about political voting ruining the contest, yet very little said about Ukraine winning g their semi with that song??Ukraine certainly has been getting automatic televotes on a lower level to Israel since the war started and any solution that targets Israel would also likely target them too. However the song is good, deserved to be in the final and do well, and yeah no one complains about Ukraine because without reopening the tiresome conversation about how Ukraine and Israel are different, most of Europe is broadly in support of Ukraine and their support is somewhat organic, not boosted by advertisement campaigns and people looking to, by your own admittance, stick it to the woke.23 minutes ago, eurovision4ever said:Also the UK televote every single year is dominated by diaspora voting. Lithuania, Poland and Latvia are always guaranteed top points from us. Really Sweden should have been our televote winner this year based on the results.Maybe change it to one vote each??There's a pretty clear difference between the diaspora voting that has become part of the contest over time, varies between nations and can be left alone without it distorting the contest too much, and the bought and paid for voting dominance that now leaves Israel as an automatic winner contender as soon as the confirmed countries list goes up.
May 18May 18 24 minutes ago, eurovision4ever said:I know plenty of people not interested in the competition who voted for Israel.I mean is this not the issue.Anyway enough about that fiasco from me.- Really surprised that Estonia did so well with the public - and ok with the jury - when San Marino/Iceland did terribly. I really thought they'd appeal similarly and was gutted for the latter in particular!- I see Italy as having a massively variable entry quality (I guess they do like to go for lots of different genres which is nice, but some are very much not appealing to me) but this does matter as they seem to do well every year.- Luxembourg jury flop oops, I thought it was an underdog for a really good jury score.- Poland, Lithuania, Ukraine and Portugal seem to have the strongest diaspora effect but I don't think their scores can be attributed entirely to that, nor can diasporas be relied on (= Switzerland has a huge Portuguese population especially in the French-speaking part but gave Portugal nothing).
May 18May 18 14 minutes ago, Harve said:But there's no guarantee that Israel would flop in the jury vote in the future and there's no point gaming these scenarios every year. Moral considerations for Eurovision - and more fundamentally in geopolitics - have been proven to be irrelevant but purely in the interests of self-preservation for the contest it's best for Israel to be gone.Finally, Azerbaijan's jury votes look suss - it's not necessarily the 12 to Israel, it's also that all the other entries considered favourites (Austria, Sweden, France) were completely snubbed which nobody else did.I hope this is opening up conversations in the EBU for precisely that reason, it would destroy the contest to be hosted by Israel in the near future, but I am not seeing how they find a reason to have Israel out of the contest unless they investigate the votes, find something irregular and ban Israel for a set period of time as punishment - which to be clear is not something I expect to happen, it would be spun awfully against them - would expect to hear the cries of 'banned for doing too well' from Zionists everywhere.
May 18May 18 3 minutes ago, Iz 🌟 said:I hope this is opening up conversations in the EBU for precisely that reason, it would destroy the contest to be hosted by Israel in the near future, but I am not seeing how they find a reason to have Israel out of the contest unless they investigate the votes, find something irregular and ban Israel for a set period of time as punishment - which to be clear is not something I expect to happen, it would be spun awfully against them - would expect to hear the cries of 'banned for doing too well' from Zionists everywhere.Yeah, I do think that most of their televote is a quite an organic far right wing vote though, which exists in every country. Organic in the sense that they're not bought SIM cards but could still of course be for reasons entirely unrelated to the song. I don't think that part necessarily needs to be formally coerced by Israel and is just a consequence of their wider propaganda, although if there is an element of that for any single country's votes then I'd be interested in the investigation.I don't think there is a clean solution other than at a geopolitical level with a consensus established that Israel is a genocidal state and for the appropriate sanctions to follow on from that. But obviously that's bigger than this contest and we are nowhere near that.I do wonder what would happen if the contest was hosted in a country that formally recognises Palestine, which notably Sweden does.
May 18May 18 My favorites from the contest were Netherlands, Austria and Israel. I did think Austria would win but disappointed that Holland didn't do better. The voting was interesting as always. I am sure Israel gained votes for political reasons but also lost votes from people who would have voted for the song but did not because it was Israel. I would also point out the UK put Poland and Lithuania 2nd and 3rd in the public vote, both countries with a high diaspora in the UK and with songs not given much chance of doing well. Also I have no doubt there were many jury members who could not bring themselves to vote for Israel even if they liked the Israeli entry. Political/nationalist voting is somewhat inevitable I feel...should we ban Ukraine as well as Israel for example or the countries with the highest diasporas within Europe ? Overall I thought the show was fantastic and we have to accept that it is not without flaws in the voting...I would just suggest that not allowing people to vote up to 20 times might help and only have voting only at the end of all the songs being heard accepting that this assists the countries near the end of the running.
May 18May 18 I do think maybe if we saw some big withdrawals (like at least one of the big 5), that might force a conversation because losing that financial backing would be bad for the EBU but even then I don’t think that any of them would withdraw. I’d wouldn’t be shocked if we get a few smaller withdrawals, which in itself would be a bit worrying for the contest getting smaller and smaller.I suppose the most likely would be Spain as they have spoken out against Israel and I know they also urged the EBU to look at their place in the contest, but then Belgium did the same last year for example and they just came right back. For a lot of these broadcasters, it’s guaranteed decent ratings each year. And that matters more to them than upsetting the balance and speaking up for what’s right.I realise it is somewhat hypocritical to watch and not boycott yet implore these broadcasters to pull out, Eurovision has been a hyper fixation for me for well over a decade now, and I’ve been watching since I can remember as a small child. It’s so sad to see it has become this and I am at a point where I actually don’t know if I will bother next time.I agree the televote at least needs reforming, it should be like say Big Brother or whatever, where you get 5 votes that count and you can allocate them however between your favourites. That or at this point just don’t even have it at all but they will definitely not do that. Maybe if enough delegations pressure the EBU into looking at the voting patterns something will be found because there no way that was authentic voting. I can't fathom it, I would never bother to waste my time and money voting in a show I don’t watch just because it was a cause I’m interested in, but then my cause wouldn’t be the genocide of innocent children either.
May 18May 18 Yet Spain still gave Israel maximum points.The views of a Tv station does not represent public opinion
May 18May 18 Israel only needed to beat every other country, not become a majority in these votes, I'd be very interested to see voting statistics of raw vote numbers in all these countries - as well as numbers of individual voters, not votes, I would be willing to bet Israel's average votes received per voter would be trending towards 20 - last year there were people openly admitting to buying SIM cards and spending 20 votes each.(and to head this one off, the woeful musical reaction to Israel's song, it's nowhere on streams, indicates that the amount of people who liked the song for it being a song is small, and the amount of people who liked the song but find it awkward to vote for Israel even smaller in terms of raw number of votes it lost vis a vis gaining far-right campaign votes)I think limiting how many times you can vote for a single country while keeping the max number of votes the same has some merit, though that does directly hit the idea of people voting for their ultimate favourite.
May 18May 18 33 minutes ago, eurovision4ever said:Yet Spain still gave Israel maximum points.The views of a Tv station does not represent public opinionGetting maximum points is not necesssarily indicative of public opinion either. It's just that it's very easy for an entry like Israel's to be a lightningrod for the right wing bloc who have no reason to vote for any other entry, particularly if they are not actually interested in the contest as you admit, when the anti-Israel bloc - as well as those not interested in the political dimension which obviously is a huge number of people too - has their voting power split 25 (or 36) ways amongst everybody else.In a non-political sense getting maximum points doesn't suggest consensus - it's the reverse of the UK or Switzerland getting 0, which just means that they were few people's favourite when I doubt they were the most hated songs of many despite having the worst score. It would only explain majority opinion if there were two entries rather than 26, but with 26 you benefit from polarisation.If Israel had won it wouldn't have been a validation of public opinion regarding the song or the Palestinian genocide for that matter. It just confirms that there is a right wing voting bloc, which we already know. The existence of this bloc makes total sense when Israel sees the contest as a crucial tool to soften its image to the world and has invested so much into it/chosen blatent propaganda entries for the last two years. Edited May 18May 18 by Harve
May 18May 18 I doubt they would cap voting as it's all $$$ for the EBU. But yes, limiting to maybe two votes per song would help reduce this, and you could give two to your ultimate favourite without Israel getting loads of 20 votes. I read one woman said she voted 100 times for it so she must have done it across loads of different phones.
May 18May 18 1 hour ago, eurovision4ever said:Yet Spain still gave Israel maximum points.The views of a Tv station does not represent public opinionHave you even read anything else in this thread other than your own post? Targeted voting campaigns are a thing that makes this possible in the first place. It’s like saying Putin legitimately won the election with 70%+ votes despite there being countless proof that it’s all faked. You don’t even have to do much research, Israelis all over the world openly admit to buying multiple SIM cards and voting for Israel, they are really that pathetic.
May 18May 18 Diaspora and voting the neighbours are THE CORE of the ESC.Supporting a random country because some people don't like the genocide they are doing is not. Edited May 18May 18 by Sour Candy
May 18May 18 Introducing anti-vote that cancels out each pro-vote (with results being a total) would solve the Israhell situation as well as create more €€€ for EBU. Win-win! Now that is the voting in which I will participate 😂
May 18May 18 Are the people who wanted to vote for the Israeli song but do not want to because of the country in the room with us right now? 🤔
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