October 31, 20231 yr I'd agree that it has racist connotations, it's unhelpful at best for it to be used (even if the intentions are for both Israelis and Palestinans to live together freely and peacefully), and as above can be interpreted as threatening by being construed as removing or denying the Jewish right to self-determination. IMO it would achieve more if the protestors who I agree with overall do not use that saying going forwards as it is weaponised by the media and detracts from the horrors actually happening in Palestine. Fully agreed.
October 31, 20231 yr What does everyone think about "from the river to the sea?" There seems to be a lot of discourse that it means from a specific river to the sea, the land should be a Palestinian ethnostate with any Israelis or Jewish people eliminated? But I don't know enough to judge if that's a reach or it's a dogwhistle. As others have said, not the best idea to use it due to a history of a small minority of pro-Palestinians using it in that ethnostate sense. The phrase doesn't inherently mean Israel is wiped out, because it just describes the territory under dispute, between the sea and the river Jordan, the massacring and abolishment of Israel isn't baked into the phrase by default though certainly sometimes it is as a dogwhistle. But then we have the way Labour MP Andy MacDonald meant it in his recontextualisation of the phrase yesterday: We won’t rest until we have justice, until all people, Israelis and Palestinians, between the river and the sea can live in peaceful liberty It would take someone really disingenuous to argue that he used it there in an antisemitic sense. Still lost the whip over it and it probably was a bad idea to try and reclaim it as a Labour politician (a good idea as a protest leader though), Starmer still is refusing to call for a ceasefire. But away from Labour psychodrama, the phrasing MacDonald uses is what everyone should want. Because that's the only long-term solution where there is peace and no longer killing, a single state that is specifically not an ethnostate of either Israelis or Palestinians but one that like other contentious regions with different groups potentially hostile to each other (Bosnia, N Ireland, neither are the best example but...) has a system of power sharing. Or the Oslo Accords that Rabin and Arafat tried to negotiate back in the 90s. That was a high point for Israeli-Palestinian relations and it's a wonder that Western politicians aren't trying to lead Netanyahu's government towards that sort of stance again. The standard line of Western politicians for 'two-state-solution, can't support ceasefire', isn't going to lead to long-term peace, if it leads to peace at all.
October 31, 20231 yr Incidentally, a couple of points that were raised earlier, the FT on the accuracy of the Gaza's Health Ministry figures (in the past): US president Joe Biden said last week he had “no confidence in the number that the Palestinians are using” for the dead. But in past Israel-Hamas conflicts, when the dust settled and UN agencies did their own tallies, no huge discrepancies appeared with those put out by Gaza’s health officials.https://www.ft.com/content/4668c628-9a5d-48...9f-90773ac2e25b good, balanced article, the FT editorial board braver than the troops (and certainly Keir Starmer) in calling for a ceasefire while not minimizing the horrors that Israel endured earlier this month. and as we did get into history: @1718999553104335001 If the Israeli state had held onto its socialist origins and didn't get suckered into this far-right Likud nationalism that stirs up hate between groups, we'd be seeing a lot less problems. As I have often said, events have happened and we can't undo them, but Palestine's claim to the land is still a valid one, as is now the Israeli claim. In embracing globalization and deregulation in the 1980s, Israel turned its back on its socialist heritage. The kibbutz, for example, one universally admired, gradually adopted the practices of privatization in order to survive.... The advent of Palestinian Islamism precipitated a cosmic move to the right in Israel in the hope that the 'hard men' would be efficient protectors of the people. The rise to power of previously discredited figures such as Ariel Sharon, who confronted Hamas with Israel's military might, coupled with the perceived corruption of Yasser Arafat's governing Palestinian National Authority, persuaded many ordinary Palestinians to vote Hamas into power in 2006... From an Israeli-perspective essay in a book I have that asks historians to conceptualise a summary of their nation (Histories of Nations, ed. Peter Furtado, this essay by Colin Shindler, 2012). You can see the threads of how this conflict has gotten worse here. And yes, the Islamism is also at fault. But it is not the only fault.
November 1, 20231 yr I hate to say it but Andrew bloody Tate (who remains disgustingly misogynistic on other issues) has a more moral stance on Palestine than the leader of the Labour Party. Piers Morgan also raising objections against Israel - mind you he has been pretty good on certain things (Covid) in the past.
November 2, 20231 yr Craig Mokhiber UN Human Rights expert: ‘This is a textbook case of genocide. The governments of the US, U.K. & much of Europe are wholly complicit in this…Not only refusing to meet their legal obligations, but giving political & diplomatic cover for Israel’s atrocities.’
November 2, 20231 yr This is a textbook case of genocide. The word 'genocide' is used too loosely these days... View this post on Instagram Still want a ceasefire with Hamas? That's like calling for a ceasefire with Hitler. @1719697102383554730 Edited November 2, 20231 yr by Voodoo
November 2, 20231 yr And here comes the hitler mention and arguing about semantics and whether or not something qualifies as a genocide. Does the death toll need to be higher? Or do these people have to actually be considered as humans in the eyes of others?
November 2, 20231 yr And here comes the hitler mention Both Hitler and Hamas want/ed to inflict genocide on the Jewish people. I've just provided a proof. As for the talk about the "death toll": @1718579754230534529 Edited November 2, 20231 yr by Voodoo
November 2, 20231 yr Mate these takes are getting to be a lot. Just come out and say you think Israelis are the only people in this conflict. Dressing it up saying it's not genocide etc. while everything else you say has you perfectly happy to see every single Palestinian shot or blown up isn't the win you think it is. Like if that's your belief, own it. Don't weasel word out of it on technicalities and trying to play high moral ground.
November 2, 20231 yr ^ Just come out and say you don't think Israel has a right to defend itself, that Palastine should be from "the river to the sea" and that Israel shouldn't exist. Like if that's your belief, own it. Admit it, like these people in the video below. :teresa: View this post on Instagram Edited November 2, 20231 yr by Voodoo
November 2, 20231 yr How does one get ‘you don’t want Israel to exist’ when people are literally saying they’re against genocide and want the killing to stop? There’s blinkered and then there’s that.
November 2, 20231 yr The word 'genocide' is used too loosely these days... View this post on Instagram But the genocide is happening right now from Oct 7th so the growth in numbers before the genocide is not relevant. The Israelis have killed 10000 civilians in just a few weeks, not to mention destroyed Gazan infrastructure. That's pretty genocidal. Edited November 2, 20231 yr by Smint
November 2, 20231 yr Worryingly this happened today in 1917: Today in 1917 the UK issued the Balfour Declaration- ambiguous support for a Jewish homeland in Palestine Britain would seize Ottoman territory, with an overwhelmingly Palestinian population & give some of it to the Jews (while assuming that Brits would maintain overall control) What could go wrong….. The f***ing Brits are the cause of all the worlds conflicts I swear they have a lot to answer for!
November 2, 20231 yr But the genocide is happening right now Did it also happen in WW2, too, as 2 million Germans were killed? :manson: Israel is killing terrorists. Yes, there are also civilians that get killed, but what can you do if they are used as human shields by Hamas? @1719322119803179088 Edited November 2, 20231 yr by Voodoo
November 2, 20231 yr ^ Just come out and say you don't think Israel has a right to defend itself, that Palastine should be from "the river to the sea" and that Israel shouldn't exist. Like if that's your belief, own it. Admit it, like these people in the video below. :teresa: View this post on Instagram Point me anything I've said in the thread that even vaguely implies that please. I'll wait.
November 2, 20231 yr Instead of trying to counter my arguments, you accused me of being "perfectly happy to see every single Palestinian shot or blown up". That is very low. Edited November 3, 20231 yr by Voodoo
November 3, 20231 yr Instead of trying to counter my arguments, you accused me of being "perfectly happy to see every single Palestinian shot or blown up". That is very low. What else do you possibly mean by putting things like "death toll" in inverted commas as if it doesn't count?
November 3, 20231 yr What else do you possibly mean by putting things like "death toll" in inverted commas as if it doesn't count? Because it is superficial and shallow to look at the number of casualties without putting context to it. Russia’s military casualties are approaching 300,000. The number includes as many as 120,000 deaths and 170,000 to 180,000 injured troops. The Russian numbers dwarf the Ukrainian figures, which estimates put at close to 70,000 killed and 100,000 to 120,000 wounded. Oh, Russia's death toll is so much higher than Ukraine's. According to your logic, we must be siding with Russia. :coffee: Edited November 3, 20231 yr by Voodoo
November 3, 20231 yr Because it is superficial and shallow to look at the number of casualties without putting context to it. Russia’s military casualties are approaching 300,000. The number includes as many as 120,000 deaths and 170,000 to 180,000 injured troops. The Russian numbers dwarf the Ukrainian figures, which estimates put at close to 70,000 killed and 100,000 to 120,000 wounded. Oh, Russia's death toll is so much higher than Ukraine's. According to your logic, we must be siding with Russia. :coffee: The Russians in Ukraine are soldiers and invaders, combatants in the conflict. The people in Palestine are civilians living on Palestinian land. International humanitarian law makes this distinction no problem. Like, the IDF have admitted to targeting refugee camps with their strikes. That's not targeting enemy Hamas combatants or doing everything they can to minimize civilian casualties. They've targeted the south of Gaza with strikes after telling all civilians to move out of the north for their own safety.
November 3, 20231 yr The people in Palestine are civilians living on Palestinian land. The people in Dresden were civilians on German land. Israel has better morals than the UK. Israel uses roof knocking before it attacks a Hamas HQ. Poor civilians in Germany were killed without a warning. Israel's target is killing terrorists only. Edited November 3, 20231 yr by Voodoo
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