The people in Dresden were civilians on German land.

 

Israel has better morals than the UK. Israel uses roof knocking before it attacks a Hamas HQ. Poor civilians in Germany were killed without a warning. Israel's target is killing terrorists only.

 

It's pretty well-established that WW2 horrors from the Allied side were also bad.

 

And this is the thing. Israel claims this. But then it goes ahead and does bombing that very clearly is not about killing terrorists only, in places that civilians have not been told to evacuate from.

 

At this point, and as I've said above that we can trust the figures from the Gaza Health Ministry to be somewhere within the realms of reality, 9000 Palestinians have been killed, 3000 children. That's not all from attacking Hamas HQs.

And in any case, great pivoting to swing directly from using Russian casualties to try and justify to using WW2 civilian casualties. Almost as if you don't care and are just trying to justify Israeli attacks however you can with whatever 'whataboutist' claim that comes to mind.

I don't want to tag team on this but Voodoo, this was my point earlier.

 

If you aren't distinguishing between civilian deaths and combatant deaths, and if you generally are in favour of either happening in order for the conflict to end, then what you are advocating for literally is for anyone in Palestine to indiscriminately be wiped out, just in case they might be Hamas or otherwise pose some kind of threat.

 

I think this is also where we have a point of difference when you bring in other conflicts, were these civilian deaths justified, were those? In my opinion, no. None of them were justified. It's not to me a case of least worst here - once you get to targeting civilians with bombs, once you get to looking at everyone as a target - then what ever way you justify it to yourself, you have crossed a line morally in my view.

 

If you want to look at Russia and Ukraine, we'll look at it. I don't think any of those deaths were justified. I think the whole thing is ridiculous. Violence like this only begets more violence, breeding a desire for vengeance.

And this is the thing. Israel claims this. But then it goes ahead and does bombing that very clearly is not about killing terrorists only, in places that civilians have not been told to evacuate from.

Hamas wants as many as possible civilians in Gaza to be dead. It's good for its propaganda and suits its narrative, whereas Israel tries to minimize civilians casualties.

 

You cannot kill terrorists without civilians getting hurt, too. That's the strategy of Hamas. It operates from within schools, hospitals, mosques, etc.

 

@1720011461953556751

Edited November 3, 20231 yr by Voodoo

Almost as if you don't care and are just trying to justify Israeli attacks however you can with whatever 'whataboutist' claim that comes to mind.

In my view, whataboutism is quite a useful rhetorical method to expose hypocrisy and double standards.

 

Why nobody in the West seems/ed to care for the German / Russian civilians that were killed? Why is only Israel not allowed to defend itself in a war that it didn't start?

 

Hamas declared that it would repeat the October 7th attacks as many times as necessary, until Israel is eliminated.

 

Israel cannot co-exist with Hamas on its borders.

 

View this post on Instagram

Edited November 3, 20231 yr by Voodoo

I don't want to tag team on this but Voodoo, this was my point earlier.

Then what is your suggestion for freeing Gaza from Hamas? Unless you think Hamas terrorists should contine ruling Gaza and making millions of people suffer.

MomJusticeUS, the official Palestine-Israel relationship news source.

MomJusticeUS, the official Palestine-Israel relationship news source.

It was reported by many sources. Look it up. Don't bury your head in the sand.

 

@1719865465940611282

apropos of nothing, mods, you have free reign to remove any sources from people's posts if they're of especially poor quality. It's a tough balance to get right with so much misinformation around but questionable info from unsourced social media post or tabloid rag is just going to waste our time.

 

Hamas wants as many as possible civilians in Gaza to be dead. It's good for its propaganda and suits its narrative, whereas Israel tries to minimize civilians casualties.

 

You cannot kill terrorists without civilians getting hurt, too. That's the strategy of Hamas. It operates from within schools, hospitals, mosques, etc.

 

Israel minimising civilian casualties has been proven to be false by now. Let's not pretend that that's the case.

 

I want political discussion here to be based in reality and when 65% of the horrifically huge total of casualties is women and children then to say the side that caused them is minimising civilian casualties is insulting and conspiratorial.

 

Israel would be going about this in an entirely different fashion if that was their aim.

 

@1719416385418182740

 

Allegedly there were Hamas commanders in this camp. That does not mean the lives of all the refugees there should be forfeit. No moral case can be made for that. Jupiter said it right, once you are bombing civilians, you have crossed a line morally. The ends don't justify the means, especially these ends; Israel may kill all current Hamas commanders, but violence is an especially poor way to eradicate extremism from a population.

 

In my view, whataboutism is quite a useful rhetorical method to expose hypocrisy and double standards.

 

Why nobody in the West seems/ed to care for the German / Russian civilians that were killed? Why is only Israel not allowed to defend itself in a war that it didn't start?

 

Hamas declared that it would repeat the October 7th attacks as many times as necessary, until Israel is eliminated.

 

Israel cannot co-exist with Hamas on its borders.

 

Yeah, that's quite telling with how you're engaging here. Most of the time what that style of arguing tends to do is to waste time by bringing up cases that are not relevant because of wildly different circumstances ('but what about this? how about in this case?' is exhausting to read and to deal with), also ignoring that, in this case, I would make the exact same argument each time. Civilian casualties caused by violent actors are bad, no matter who they are.

 

I could also pretty fairly say that Palestine can't co-exist with the Israeli far-right on its borders. Obviously they aren't quite the same brand of brutal evil as Hamas but they're still causing untold death and destruction to normal Palestinian people. The current leaders on both sides are what led to this.

The people in Dresden were civilians on German land.

 

Israel has better morals than the UK. Israel uses roof knocking before it attacks a Hamas HQ. Poor civilians in Germany were killed without a warning. Israel's target is killing terrorists only.

The Geneva Conventions post-date WWII. They were established as a response to events such as the Allied bombing of Dresden.

Israel would be going about this in an entirely different fashion if that was their aim.

Like what? Doing nothing in response to the most deadly terror attack in its entire history?

 

I could also pretty fairly say that Palestine can't co-exist with the Israeli far-right on its borders. Obviously they aren't quite the same brand of brutal evil as Hamas but they're still causing untold death and destruction to normal Palestinian people. The current leaders on both sides are what led to this.

No. There was a ceasefire on October 6th. Who violated it? Hamas. Only Hamas. There is no symmetry.

 

By the way, Hamas attacked Israel even when the latter was led by a left government, so there's no need to give excuses.

Edited November 3, 20231 yr by Voodoo

Like what? Doing nothing in response to the most deadly terror attack in its entire history?

 

When the UN has serious concerns and even the allies who initially came out gung ho for 'Israel has a right to defend itself' are having concerns that the response is disproportionate, it's obvious that they are going too far. It's a crazed mess of an assault, suddenly necessitating the eternal destruction of Hamas (despite tolerating their continued existence and rule over Gaza for years) no matter who they kill in the process and their response has cost more in human lives than said most deadly terror attack.

 

It isn't justified when America does it, it's not justified when Israel does it.

 

No. There was a ceasefire on October 6th. Who violated it? Hamas. Only Hamas. There is no symmetry.

 

By the way, Hamas attacked Israel even when the latter was led by a left government, so there's no need to give excuses.

 

You know and I know, and you're even referencing it here, that the conflict did not start a month ago. You could even go back to the founding of Israel and that given the original peace plan, Palestine was originally to have far more land, such that the division would be a real two-state solution (though Palestinian leaders reneged on claiming anything but Gaza/West Bank since Oslo I). Or the founding of Hamas, or Israeli settlements on occupied land in the West Bank, or the unlawful Israeli blockade of Gaza, or the failures of the PLO such that Islamists took over.

 

I mention far-right politics because it drives up nationalism, making tensions rise and leading both peoples towards the idea that they cannot tolerate the other side to live. That is what is most dangerous as it leads towards genocide and it's why this specific conflict has been as violent as it has. If the Palestinians had a strong moderate leader and the Israelis did not have someone like Netanyahu in charge, it wouldn't be so pressing. Right now I am very concerned, as are quite a lot of international observers, that the current direction of travel is leading to a truly tragic situation where Palestinians have to leave Gaza permanently, lest they be killed by the Israelis. That's why we need a ceasefire and a cooling of the conflict.

You could even go back to the founding of Israel and that given the original peace plan, Palestine was originally to have far more land, such that the division would be a real two-state solution

The fact is that the Arabs REJECTED the UN Partition Plan and declared war. That is basic history.

 

The Arabs want Palastine from the river to the sea, Jews-free. They say it out loud, but I see that some people on here refuse to acknowledge this fact. :coffee:

 

@1720041971266265216

Edited November 4, 20231 yr by Voodoo

The Irish conflict is similar violence leads to more violence and just leads to the opposite outcome of what the IDF want here. Look at NI - fighting the IRA what did that lead to? The IRA basically as the Prime Minister of modern day NI!

I do wish that Voodoo would exhibit basic reading comprehension, read the entirety of what I write and not respond to a portion of a single sentence, the excluded portion of which gives an acknowledgement that those Palestinian state lines are no longer the case, and the excluded paragraph as a whole is not in fact talking about the legitimacy of any of those claims but rather describing other such transgressions in history like this month's atrocities that the conflict could go back to.

 

Anyway, Tories having fun over here with the prospect of banning protests for peace on Armistice Day. That's fun and certainly not Orwellian.

The fact is that the Arabs REJECTED the UN Partition Plan and declared war. That is basic history.

 

The Arabs want Palastine from the river to the sea, Jews-free. They say it out loud, but I see that some people on here refuse to acknowledge this fact. :coffee:

 

“Between the sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.”

 

That comes from the founding charter of Netanyahu's Likud party.

In my view, whataboutism is quite a useful rhetorical method to expose hypocrisy and double standards.

 

Why nobody in the West seems/ed to care for the German / Russian civilians that were killed? Why is only Israel not allowed to defend itself in a war that it didn't start?

 

Hamas declared that it would repeat the October 7th attacks as many times as necessary, until Israel is eliminated.

 

Israel cannot co-exist with Hamas on its borders.

 

View this post on Instagram

 

 

It’s well documented that both sides of the forces in WW2 committed atrocities. Just as USA are criticised for dropping the nuclear bomb on Hiroshima despite the Pearl Harbour attack Then both the US and U.K. got tons of criticism for going into Iraq after Sept 11th. Plenty of people in here have said Hamas are at fault for their attack however most people can see Israel are also to blame for their own attacks both current and in the past, you however are totally blind to that fact, blinkered by it.

It’s well documented that both sides of the forces in WW2 committed atrocities. Just as USA are criticised for dropping the nuclear bomb on Hiroshima despite the Pearl Harbour attack

If the West didn't commit those atrocities (as you call them) then none of us would be able to sit here in 2023 and discuss music and charts. If England had lost WW2, it would have been under a Nazi regime until this day.

Edited November 4, 20231 yr by Voodoo

If the West didn't commit those atrocities (as you call them) then none of us would be able to sit here in 2023 and discuss music and charts. If England had lost WW2, it would have been under a Nazi regime until this day.

 

And that has what to do with this issue? Does the huge loss of life mean nothing to you? I’m sure most people are grateful to be here whilst simultaneously recognising that it wasn’t good that innocent people had to be killed in order for this to be the case.

And that has what to do with this issue? Does the huge loss of life mean nothing to you? I’m sure most people are grateful to be here whilst simultaneously recognising that it wasn’t good that innocent people had to be killed in order for this to be the case.

It was unfortunate but still very much necessary in order for WW2 to end and to finally beat the Nazis. It actually saved many more MILLIONS of lives of people that could have been killed if the war hadn't ended in 1945.

Edited November 4, 20231 yr by Voodoo