The fee and the form are the main issue, not the name of it. After decades of being able to move freely around Europe, we are about to lose that right. If you haven't already got the necessary permit, you will no longer be able to make a spur of the moment decision to, for example, hop on the Eurostar.

Yes, true and it's a bit of a shame I guess. Just wanted to clarify that it's categorically not a visa.

Yes, true and it's a bit of a shame I guess. Just wanted to clarify that it's categorically not a visa.

It's more than just a shame. We are having rights taken away from us and the government are boasting about it. I could get on a bus to Newhaven tomorrow morning and get a ferry to Dieppe. Soon, I won't be able to do that unless I have acquired an additional piece of documentation.

I wonder how strictly it'll be followed there - I can't imagine immigration being controlled much even following leaving the single market!

I wonder how strictly it'll be followed there - I can't imagine immigration being controlled much even following leaving the single market!

 

They control it with everyone else. You will no longer be in the EU line for starters. They will check it. Urgh. That is going to be VILE standing in the non EU line, especially the first time :(

 

I won't I'm an Irish passport holder :)

It has been announced today that we will have to apply for a visa and pay ¢7 to be able to visit EU countries if we cease to be a member. That, of course, means filling in a form. In other words, more of that red tape we were supposed to be able to get rid of if we left.

 

AIUI, this will be once-off fee, and therefore trivial.

AIUI, this will be once-off fee, and therefore trivial.

It lasts for three years. Besides, it’s the principle that counts.

It lasts for three years. Besides, it’s the principle that counts.

 

If you say so...

AIUI, this will be once-off fee, and therefore trivial.

 

It's more paperwork nuisance every 3 years and extra cost we don;t have to pay currently and standing in line with non-EU people getting grilled, like going to the USA which is such a shitty drawn-out experience of one to two hours standing for my elderly parents that I stopped going and took them to Spain instead where you have theme parks half the cost and you get waved through with a minor glance at your photo - it's actually easier than getting back into the UK, where you stand in line 10 to 15 minutes and get scanned back into the country. That's a british citizen getting randomly checked by customs to see what stuff is stashed in the small hand luggage. Should be great fun once we leave and there are way more foreigners to check who don;t have a right to enter the country. Customs are already understaffed, so tourism should do quite nicely out of it in the UK. Speaking for myself, if I have an unpleasant customs experience (such as Australia) I never go back. If you don't want my money fine, be snarky, humorless and slow for no good reason.....

 

Still, just Project fear eh?

Err you were the one arguing against parliament having a say on the deal, "Traitors" they, the British judges, were called by the gutter press for agreeing that we needed Parliamentary approval to kick it off and to approve it. left to your devices May would have had carte blanche to force through the current deal that you love so much.

 

Such short memories Brexteers have, especially those ones now voting against the deal agreed having argued that Parliament shouldnt have a vote. Hypocrites. You know the ones - those who failed to make the EU give up the 4 freedoms that everyone who wants those benefits has to sign up to?

 

There was not one single politician saying we would leave with No Deal during the referendum, nor were there any saying it would be fabulous for the country's well-being to leave with No Deal. Nor do they have any answers to resolve the problems that would 100% occur with No Deal. The morons still insist we will trade as if we were part of the EU. We won't. Trade will have to be renegotiated with all the countries who are members of the WTO who have said we can go jump in a lake if we think we are getting the same deals as the EU. Including the USA who have stated on record that they see an opportunity to steal our business while we are weak and isolated.

 

Of course if we had a 3-way vote, using your ongoing insistence that all 17.4 million voters, even the dead ones, will vote exactly the same way again then it wouldnt matter would it? All 17.4 million will all vote exactly the same way for No Deal, presumably, and not in any way accept the deal that everyone seems to hate but is the only one on offer, or stay in the EU as options because they won't have changed their minds.

 

So, yes, have as many options as anyone likes, it must therefore split the vote for non-No-Dealers amongst all the other options and give you an easy victory? I'm sure the previous lies and promises made, and the illegal campaign funding, had absolutely zero effect on how people voted so democracy will be seen to be done once again and we can all agree to crash out and crash the economy. I'm not bitter in any way about my holiday euros getting close to 1 for 1 this week either, no sirree, cos we are still in the EU and it can't POSSIBLY get any worse leaving without a deal at all, can it?

 

Don’t ignore this, Vid.

How many times have we proved you wrong on that now?! Even Nazi bloody Farage campaigned for a Norway option, saying "nobody is talking about leaving the single market". Ho hmm. So the Leavers neeever campaigned for a Hard Brexit. Sorry. Should I get the receipts AGAIN? Video or articles. Your choice.

 

Nor this, as you are sure to repeat it at some point as if we haven't gone over it.

Basically, at this point, no matter what happens at this point in regards to Brexit, there will be, if you pardon my language, an absolute poo-storm.

 

If we do get some sort of Brexit deal, then as has been mentioned before, it will leave a lot of people worse off, and there will be a lot of extra bureaucracy involved, especially involving travelling abroad, as has been mentioned already. (One of the reasons I voted Remain is because of the extra hassle and expense that it would cause touring British musicians travelling around Europe, to the extent that many of them would not be able to tour, and could also deter musicians from outside the UK from coming here as well).

 

If we crash out with a No Deal Brexit, then there will be all sorts of issues as well. Although some of the more extreme warnings about a No Deal scenario seem completely far-fetched (such as the idea that planes will literally not be able to take off), there will be significant chaos the day that we officially leave and in the weeks and months straight after that will have an unignorable knock-on effect on everyone.

 

As for cancelling Brexit altogether and staying put in the EU (a scenario that I imagine would be the preferred option on this site) - there are real dangers involved with this as well. Even if you suppose that a significant percent of Leave voters have flipped their wigs and would vote remain this time around (and I'm somewhat sceptical of opinion polls in regards to this subject, as they are worthless until there is an actual public vote and the campaigning officially springs into gear), if we do stay in, there will be at least a good 10 million people who will be awfully pissed that as far as they are concerned, their success vote to leave has been ignored, and will not hesitate to make their concerns known through the ballot box - and keeping in mind that the official party of Leave, Ukip, has devolved deeper into the stench of ugly, racist xenophobia, you really do not want to be giving them any power whatsoever.

 

So basically, as far as I can tell, whatever happens, the UK's in crap. I'm sorry to be so pessimistic, but honestly I've never felt to troubled about a political issue.

The Planes thing isn't far fetched. All our planes are licensed to fly by an EU body, pilots with an EU license can fly anywhere in the EU meaning we could face a shortage of crew when they aren't licensed to fly here any more. Ryanair, the UK's biggest airline, is an Irish airline with all of it's pilots and planes registered in Ireland.....all of which would be unable to fly in a no deal scenario.

 

Our flight rights to the US are governed by the UK-EU open skies agreement, we'd lose traffic rights to fly to the EU as we'd suddenly have no agreement with the EU to fly aircraft into their airspace.

 

The aviation industry would have some pretty big issues in the event of no deal. (and that's before you consider all the people on the planes needing processed as non-UK visitors, the lack of visas they'll all have leading to hostile immigration desks, all the additional customs checks needed on freight and mail on the aircraft (which helps keep fares low) all causing huge backlogs at airports

Did you know that, in the 1975 referendum only 17.38m out of the 40.09m electorate voted to endorse our EEC membership - so by the logic sometimes used by members of this form, i.e. 50% support of the electorate should be need for change, our entry was technically not supported... :heehee:

Did you know that, in the 1975 referendum only 17.38m out of the 40.09m electorate voted to endorse our EEC membership - so by the logic sometimes used by members of this form, i.e. 50% support of the electorate should be need for change, our entry was technically not supported... :heehee:

We were already in. The referendum endorsed our continued membership. Of course, that referendum was also advisory.

We were already in. The referendum endorsed our continued membership. Of course, that referendum was also advisory.

 

YEs, but the point is that I was demonstrating the bizarre logic used by some here to try to undermine the 2016 referendum... :wacko:

Did you know that, in the 1975 referendum only 17.38m out of the 40.09m electorate voted to endorse our EEC membership - so by the logic sometimes used by members of this form, i.e. 50% support of the electorate should be need for change, our entry was technically not supported... :heehee:

 

Strawman. 66% of those who VOTE. Leave only won whaat 37%, 1/3, of the total ELECTORATE, never mind those young enough to vote who are OVERWHELMINGLY in favour of the EU? Seeing as this vote refers to a long term decision and the future, surely it is the youth who should make said decision, no?

 

It is leavers basing reality on a feeling that have the faulty bizarre logic.

Strawman. 66% of those who VOTE. Leave only won whaat 37%, 1/3, of the total ELECTORATE, never mind those young enough to vote who are OVERWHELMINGLY in favour of the EU? Seeing as this vote refers to a long term decision and the future, surely it is the youth who should make said decision, no?

 

Are you seriously suggesting that older voters should have had no say in the decision? :huh:

On the other hand, would you disagree with the notion that those who are now of majority voting age but weren’t in 2016, should have a chance to say now about their future, as they have reached majority prior to us even leaving.

 

Retrospectively, the more reasonable conversation about voting age is that of younger voters getting the chance to make a decision that impacts their future, as the Scottish ones were given in indyref1.

 

Getting caught up in ageism debates about whether we should respect the voting wishes of the nearly dead helps no one, which is why Michael, firebrand though he is, didn’t actually say that the elderly shouldn’t be involved. Merely implied it.

 

Related thought: if we could privately track someone’s vote securely and in a somewhat unOrwellian manner where no one has access to the individual information then a dream scenario for votes like this and even general elections would be to create completely accurate polling, and for opinion polls of the nature of the referendum, add in votes for those reaching majority and remove those who have died. Save us these arguments about ‘will of the people as of a rainy day one June a couple of years ago’.

YEs, but the point is that I was demonstrating the bizarre logic used by some here to try to undermine the 2016 referendum... :wacko:

 

I see nothing wrong with periodic checks that the deals politicians have made on our behalf are what we want. That's what Nigel farage believes and said the night of the referendum when he thought he'd lost that "this is not the end of the matter".

 

If that's what he believed then he can't argue that the people shouldnt have the final say on the deal that has been agreed, or no deal, or staying, based on promises that were made - as Rees-Mogg said in 2011 before he changed his mind. The idea that nobody ever changes their mind is an excuse to ignore democracy. Remember this whole mess was created by rabid Brexiteers rushing through legislation panicking that "quick do it now before they change their minds" and not thinking it through methodically and making sure that everything was ready to avoid the worst-case scenario: being thrown out with nothing agreed with anyone vs everyone behind something they can all come together on.

 

Farage wanted a Norway agreement. Now he doesn't. If even the leader of Brexit can't agree with himself 2 years later why on Earth should anyone expect people to agree with themselves two years later? It's called changing your mind and it's the basis of democracy.

 

Answer that.