February 26, 20223 yr It’s not just a “territory”, it’s a country with real people. Yes, it's a country with real people, most of whom - aside from those men of fighting age - have fled to safety. That's sad and horrible for them, and something no-one should ever have to go through - however it's not 1914 or 1939 and sending troops into defend 'democracy' is not going to be as simple and likely to be even more deadly, with far more dangerous technologies around now than were then. It's tremendously sad and horrible to see this happen to Ukraine, but sending British troops into Ukraine - a non NATO country - is an escalation to a full scale world war and would risk scaring Putin into invading a NATO country that bordered Russia - I'd honestly hazard that's why he has so few troops in Ukraine itself - as he's waiting for an excuse from the west's actions with military stationed on other borders, I can't believe anyone in the UK truly wants that. What's happening in Ukraine is devastating to watch, but what would happen if we sent troops into Ukraine is not even worth thinking about - NATO countries have been desperately scaling back their military spending for decades - Russia has been expanding theirs, both the US and Russia have access to nuclear weapons. Afghanistan served the purpose of avoiding war in Europe for the past 20 or so years, as a proxy war - actions in the next few days and months between NATO and Russia regarding Ukraine could seriously decide whether this war is contained to Ukraine or spreads beyond, and I ask the question again, is the sake of one country worth hundreds of thousands, if not millions of lives? Until we know whether Putin truly intends just to take Ukraine or wishes to invade a NATO country, it's a ridiculously dangerous idea to send troops - it's absolutely right to help Ukranians defend themselves. Long term, the world may have to resign itself to the fact allowing Russia to occupy at least the Eastern part of Ukraine with only limited 'military aid' to Ukraine and absolutely no NATO troops on the ground, is the only way to prevent Vladimir Putin going completely power-hungry for other nations bordering Russia - we've already seen the unhinged threats of catastrophe and consequences if Finland and Sweden join NATO. I'm not going to apologise for suggesting that rushing into a world war for the sake of a single country is a bad idea. It's amazing how quickly 'never again' can be forgotten - get everybody out of Ukraine that we can and provide them sanctuary but don't poke a beast that is clearly willing to go over most lines. Edited February 26, 20223 yr by Chartfridays
February 26, 20223 yr Fully aware of what alliances the Ukraine is a member of. Would like to invite you to re-read. „…can no longer argue about the ukraines PLACE in the world. IT (ie The Ukraines place) is in NATO. IT (again, the ukraines place) is in the EU.“ and now you’ve re-read and hopefully actually understood my point you can withdraw the words you’re trying to put in my mouth The only thing I want is the Russians to return to Russia and if they need a little help to find their way back over the border, then we should be giving it But your point is wrong, because the fact Ukraine isn't either in NATO or EU is exactly the reason we have this war in the first place, it's complete garbage to suggest that this war has shifted it's place in the world, otherwise we'd have sent troops we haven't.
February 26, 20223 yr That’s one (pathetic) way to justify UK’s xenophobia and racism. And it’s sad to see someone justifying or pretending this is even a way to go in our current globalised world. Also, will Poland be able to take ALL the refugees? Of course not. I never said it was right, I was explaining the justification. We should accept migrants, but the governments logic is exactly the same logic that Poland used to refusing Syrians to disguise their literal racism on it.
February 26, 20223 yr Yes, it's a country with real people, most of whom - aside from those men of fighting age - have fled to safety. No not really, UN has stated that there are around 180k refugees so far. The country has 44 million inhabitants.
February 26, 20223 yr No not really, UN has stated that there are around 180k refugees so far. The country has 44 million inhabitants. There's a large part of Western Ukraine that is not a warzone. Reports that many captured Russian soldiers are claiming they didn't know they were being sent to Ukraine and wouldn't have gone if they did- obviously that might be the pleading attempt of men facing death, but could be the reality, if so surely a good chance Ukrainian neighbours could offer sanctuary to Russian soldiers who lay down their arms? Edited February 26, 20223 yr by Chartfridays
February 26, 20223 yr I'm not seeing anyone saying we should have another World War. Regarding not taking in refugees, it's a Tory thing not a British thing. I was born on a street with refugee Polish from WW2, who were scarred by what happened to them. Poland is adjacent Ukraine, and we once had a mutual pact with them about being invaded. In the face of aggression one must take action of some sort, preferably non-military, or else you are just saying "help yourself" and words and threats are meaningless once they realise they are empty threats. Putin's had trial runs and got away with murder, literally, on numerous occasions with the West making a bit of noise but carrying on business as usual. I've been frustrated for years about our government in particular being useless with sucking up to Russia and China and some Middle eastern countries. It never did make sense to leave yourself economically dependant on unreliable politically dodgy powerful nations. This belief that inter-dependant economies would somehow rid the world of fascist dictators is just so laughably naive in its inability to understand that human nature - which never changes - will always trump reason. people don't always act out of reason they act out of greed or fear or delusions of godhood.
February 26, 20223 yr Almost every country. The UK is claiming to but is making it so difficult it would be easier to get asylum anywhere else on earth But they have projected a Ukrainian flag onto No 10. Isn't that enough?
February 26, 20223 yr But they have projected a Ukrainian flag onto No 10. Isn't that enough? Maybe Johnson and Sunak will stand outside No10 clap for Ukraine?
February 26, 20223 yr But your point is wrong, because the fact Ukraine isn't either in NATO or EU is exactly the reason we have this war in the first place, it's complete garbage to suggest that this war has shifted it's place in the world, otherwise we'd have sent troops we haven't. My point isn’t wrong, you just don’t seem to be able to read it. I never said it’s Position had altered or shifted. Just that there could be no more arguments about it
February 26, 20223 yr @1497378894529589250 This seems like a good thread on Putin and his aims — and mistakes. I have been trying to wrap my head around it all week. That was a great read. Thanks for sharing it. I feel like I have a better idea of it all now.
February 26, 20223 yr Surprised Hungary has agreed to sanctions and removing Russia from the SWIFT financial system. Seems Germany must have a lot more to lose from the latter though as they still haven’t agreed to it!
February 26, 20223 yr Surprised Hungary has agreed to sanctions and removing Russia from the SWIFT financial system. Seems Germany must have a lot more to lose from the latter though as they still haven’t agreed to it! Germany agreed to it a couple of hours before you posted this! They’ve also agreed to supply weapons and stop blocking the transfer of German produced weapons by other states
February 27, 20223 yr This should have been done, at the very LEAST, weeks ago, if not months or years. Ukraine has been doing well with its resistance and UK-supplied anti-tank and anti-aircraft weaponry, but it could have really stalled Russia with high-levels of Western equipment from the start.
February 27, 20223 yr Germany agreed to it a couple of hours before you posted this! They’ve also agreed to supply weapons and stop blocking the transfer of German produced weapons by other states I didn’t realise that I was reading the EU Twitter feed and it mushy have updated at that point, apologies. But it’s good to see!
February 27, 20223 yr @1497583706038484996 Just in case anyone forgot about Belarus… they have a new president (in exile) and are forming a transitional council. This miscalculation is gonna end up with Belarus as a free, democratic state on a path to NATO and EU. Putin losing the ability to keep his puppets in power
February 27, 20223 yr I didn’t realise that I was reading the EU Twitter feed and it mushy have updated at that point, apologies. But it’s good to see! It’s no worries, the news is moving hella fast at the moment
February 27, 20223 yr I didn’t realise that I was reading the EU Twitter feed and it mushy have updated at that point, apologies. But it’s good to see! Mushy?
February 27, 20223 yr Kremlin website hacked by Anonymous and Russian State TV channels are playing information about the truth about the conflict from a Ukranian point of view! :D
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