Yeah I knew I had opened a can of worms with that last reply when I made it an hour or so ago. :lol:

 

Ok, I guess I need to respond again. I want to just be clear that, whilst disappointed I didn’t qualify this month, I’m far more disappointed and upset to see how DNQ’s have affected my fellow BuzzJack members who seem to be more drained and dejected than I am this month. I don’t want to see anyone suffer or feel inferior, however, this is a competition, and as such there will inevitably be tragic disappointment and injustice will often prevail over other factors. That said, you need to enter the every contest hoping for the best but expecting the worst. That’s the only way to handle the disappointment of the latter happening otherwise you get a welcome surprise when you do and that can make your day. Anyone going into one of these contests expecting to do well and then flopping will he surely the most devastated. Set reasonable expectations I say.

There is bias though. There always has been. I’m convinced that there are some who get voted month after month because of who they are and not the track they send. If I had the time, desire and inclination, I’d go through the results with a tooth comb and prove it as well.

If the data is there, it'd sure be interesting to see this bias.

The bias is a constant factor that's been discussed many times, over the years- even if we did a blind contest people would still tell their friends what they sent so there's no point really.

 

Also, Iz, the pop comment wasn't solely directed at you, Wardy mentioned it first and it is a view that comes from a lot of other posters during various contests so it was a generalised point, apologies if you thought I was calling only you out.

Bias is hard to prove because shared and common tastes definitely come into it too but I’d also argue that it’s easier to qualify on a regular basis if you skirt the veto with songs or artists a few members have already heard and like. You’ve basically banked 50 points before you’ve even got going sometimes. I never mark down those songs myself if they get in though because that’s the job of the veto framework, not me, to judge.

 

I’m super proud of my last two results because - as far as I know - I can’t imagine Voryva or My Wing were particularly known to many/any? people before the contest so you’re constantly building a result out of no prior support. But it doesn’t always work of course, only if the song is accessible to enough people. I figured I might go out in the semis this month when I saw I could count the number of metal fans in there on one hand, but was very happy to be proven wrong and really feel for those who DNQ’d, especially if they’d had Q predictions and seemed like they had a hit on their hands.

 

Special shout out to Summericia for chalking up 19 consecutive Qs because for the most part I’d never even heard of most of the artists Roba sent in the last two years, let alone the songs themselves. So to be that inspired constantly with fresh and exciting artists and switching genres nearly each time and to Q every time must be applauded.

Edited April 30, 20232 yr by gooddelta

These days I always listen blindly to the YouTube/Apple Music playlists and I’ve found myself predominantly still giving points to the same countries as when I used to look beforehand. It is nice when a country I don’t point often sends something I really like though - and I find myself favouring those I don’t point often if songs are tied.

 

What I definitely don’t do very well is give songs a chance to grow. There’s so many songs to listen to these days that I can’t devote more time than two listens through per semi or final. And tbh some months it can only be one if I find myself in a semi or final where I don’t actually like many of them. It’s not ideal but I’m not putting myself through it a second time if I didn’t enjoy the first listen through.

 

 

I don’t buy the bias angle these days. Look at FARC who perform really strongly despite barely having a presence on the board outside of the contest. Same for some of the posters who came from the popjustice contest. Plus Spod have qualified 3 times in a row from debut despite (or because) not following any typical popularity trend. Plus those that have long streaks tend to send solid pop/dance entries month after month. Take Hendinia as an example - not a style of entry that I personally always like, but it is definitely easy to see why others do and vote for their entries.

Also, there is the argument for bias that we did the Unknown version in BJSC 29 and it barely changed who did well. But of course that’s now 13 years ago so maybe it would be interesting to repeat the experiment at some point to see if the same nations come out on top. I’d wager many would still anyway as they know what works.

Edited April 30, 20232 yr by gooddelta

There is bias though. There always has been. I’m convinced that there are some who get voted month after month because of who they are and not the track they send. If I had the time, desire and inclination, I’d go through the results with a tooth comb and prove it as well.

 

I reckon you could make some statistical conclusions with enough random sampling on point transfers between countries but that's as far as it'd go, you couldn't account that every single time the song in question changes and I think 'proving' it wouldn't help much. It happens. It's part of the beast.

 

The bias is a constant factor that's been discussed many times, over the years- even if we did a blind contest people would still tell their friends what they sent so there's no point really.

 

Also, Iz, the pop comment wasn't solely directed at you, Wardy mentioned it first and it is a view that comes from a lot of other posters during various contests so it was a generalised point, apologies if you thought I was calling only you out.

 

Ah sure, no worries, I do get a little amped up on differing definitions of pop and occasional indignation, I see your point.

 

Bias is hard to prove because shared and common tastes definitely come into it too but I’d also argue that it’s easier to qualify on a regular basis if you skirt the veto with songs or artists a few members have already heard and like. You’ve basically banked 50 points before you’ve even got going sometimes. I never mark down those songs myself if they get in though because that’s the job of the veto framework, not me, to judge.

 

I’m super proud of my last two results because - as far as I know - I can’t imagine Voryva or My Wing were particularly known to many/any? people before the contest so you’re constantly building a result out of no prior support. But it doesn’t always work of course, only if the song is accessible to enough people. I figured I might go out in the semis this month when I saw I could count the number of metal fans in there on one hand, but was very happy to be proven wrong and really feel for those who DNQ’d, especially if they’d had Q predictions and seemed like they had a hit on their hands.

 

Special shout out to Summericia for chalking up 19 consecutive Qs because for the most part I’d never even heard of most of the artists Roba sent in the last two years, let alone the songs themselves. So to be that inspired constantly with fresh and exciting artists and switching genres nearly each time and to Q every time must be applauded.

 

And in some cases it's not even about knowing how to qualify, I think those of us who've been at it for ages can tell in broad strokes, but the aim might not be to win or even to qualify, just put out something different. though my lack of results in an absolute age is getting me tempted to skirt the veto more and that's bad though perhaps not quite as bad as I used to think, there's so much music coming out and there are a level of good, known but not super known tracks that might well go unheard, perhaps an artist that no one has thought to check out new stuff from.

 

I think you've been on a great streak of sending really eye-catching entries that stand out among the lineup and are exciting to listen to and deserve a lot of kudos for that. And that is skill, in part, to be able to pick out from the songs you've been listening to which ones will capture the contest's attention best and most of the nations who consistently do well are good at finding that for a large part of the voters.

For me personally, it's not just a few DNQs and I'm quitting (I've had plenty of those over the years, including in 8 of my first 10 contests), and I don't anticipate I'll be sitting out forever, but my enjoyment of the contest hasn't been very high for a while anyway. I don't often find discoveries that I add to my playlist / download for repeated plays, and it can often be a slog to listen to a semi final or a final. Continued middling results can be tedious too - BJSC isn't all about results but it definitely gets more exciting if you're a contender even every once in a while. Literally nobody discussing your entry all month followed by a DNQ or a low final position doesn't feel satisfying really. Add to the fact that most of the songs I enjoy that would pass the veto don't strike me as being very BJSC friendly (as proven from entries of mine from Sarcastic Sounds and Mishaal DNQing, these are more indicative).

 

I think the bias can definitely be there, but for me it's even more blatant in the hype period. Obviously, as Cub Sport proved, hype / vocal support isn't indicative of points (or perhaps more indicative of an unfortunate semi final draw), but it says it all that I got excited over one post highlighting it as a contender. I think it's the first time I've had even a sprinkling of hype since Robin 2 years ago, and I've had a top 10 in the interim...! It's entirely possible that my big hits have just appealed more to the silent majority rather than the vocal few who make predictions, but even a number of my biggest hits weren't hyped the way some countries quite consistently get hyped. I'm not sure it carries over into the voting as much but I'm sure you could find a few examples in the voting patterns.

 

Ultimately I just don't feel in touch with BJSC at all currently so it's time for me to sit out for a bit (though, as I said before, I'll of course be voting in the final), but I'd hate to dampen the fun for everyone who clearly is enjoying it.

I think you've been on a great streak of sending really eye-catching entries that stand out among the lineup and are exciting to listen to and deserve a lot of kudos for that. And that is skill, in part, to be able to pick out from the songs you've been listening to which ones will capture the contest's attention best and most of the nations who consistently do well are good at finding that for a large part of the voters.

 

Sometimes it’s more luck than good judgement :lol: I can certainly remember a few risky entries over the years I’ve sent where they’ve not resonated at all and DNQ’d. Of Wild’s Haddaway is the only song I’ve sent since Choreograph that hasn’t been sitting in some musical niche, and of course the risk there is huge as if it doesn’t resonate or ends up in the wrong semi you’re in trouble.

 

To add to Summericia, huge congrats also have to go to Aeroche, Hendinia, Persephonia, Cor Lupus, Altyr etc. Whether or not it looks like some of these countries make qualifying look easy, it really isn’t easy. Usually their songs are more than strong enough to qualify out of any semi anyway but each of these has had a few close scrapes over the years - sometimes because they end up in an unfriendly semi for their song. To find an entry month in, month out that is both at least reasonably competitive and can override the potential for a wrong semi effect should be applauded. I know I get months where I think ‘the well has run dry, I’m out of ideas now’, and inevitably on these months I end up DNQ’ing. So to go years qualifying is an amazing accomplishment and definitely not easy.

 

I definitely get Joseph’s point too though - we’re all here to discover music but of course it’s not great to see the songs you love and want people to discover constantly doing badly. I’m very fortunate to have had lots of hits recently but I’ve gone through periods over time of a triple DNQ, or countless double DNQs, it’s disheartening but then most of the time I can look back at those entries and see the reason they failed to widely resonate. Not that it puts me off them, some of my favourite songs I’ve ever sent were DNQs that I still listen to regularly.

It's difficult for me to see people take the rejection to heart because I take it badly too.

I am enjoying this qualification run because I know it wont last forever.

enjoyment is subjective and different people will find enjoyment in different things in the contest whether that be discovering new music or songs doing well, the second that enjoyment goes I feel like it’s just sensible to take a break

 

I don’t believe in bias as if it was true I would win every-time

 

like dandy* though I have started listening blind these last two contests I’ve been in by shuffling Spotify and I love at the end finding out who sent my favourites by checking the country, it’s like a surprise reveal to myself

The beauty of BJSC is that it’ll always be here when the mood strikes or you have found lightning in a bottle that you absolutely must share immediately with as many people as possible.

 

Over the last 15 years there’s always been a steady ebb and flow of participation and that is how it is supposed to be. It should be a fun way to find new music, if you’re not feeling the vibe or not feeling the concept or just not in that headspace then you take a break and we will still be here when you’re ready to come back, if you ever want to.

 

It’s a shame to read that people are gonna take some time out of course and their reasons for it, but I understand and I’m not worried about it or the Contest as a whole.

 

 

 

 

 

Would be interesting to see a repeat of 29 again, but we have checked bias before as best we could. One month iirc we actually drew the semis from pots and it didn’t actually have any quantifiable impact on the qualifiers.

I've had my fair share of DNQs, I've been tracking the stats again recently and I believe this qualification brings it back to half and half (34/34)- when I first joined the contest my first SIX entries were DNQs, and when I finally did qualify I was 37th in the final or something. It took me over a year to even break the top 20 (ETA, actually over a year to even break top 30, but when I did it was straight to top 10 :lol: ), and it's still very much a rarity. I did find it disheartening and felt out of touch with the contest... but that said back then I had a lot more time when I first started so still found it easier to do repeat listens so was still more invested in my favourites. I have had those DNQ moments several times since, especially when I expected to do well, and it's all about how much expectation you build around your entry when entering and during the semis.

 

There is bias, but for me only in the expectations you have from certain countries- you know their taste, expect them to send something you like then pay more attention, but that has never stopped me from leaving those countries out from my votes or putting a "random" one at the top of my votes. Maybe I should try blind listening a bit more, but if a song hooks me, it has me. But the thing is, a country you like *is* going to be more likely to send things you like more often. I'm also more likely to vote for songs that stand out to me and sound less like other songs in the semi- I have to like it of course still but interesting instrumentation, cool lyrics, something to latch on to goes a long way. Again though, this problem would definitely be alleviated further by repeat listens, I think I relistened to my first few contests 5 or 6 times (maybe skipping ones I disregarded after the first 2), now I can only manage 1 or 2 and don't often hear the opposite semi, which is a real shame because I definitely miss some gems.

 

I'm really happy to have qualified this time, Owl City meant a lot to me growing up, but the last few albums, although I generally liked them, didn't have quite the same feel (the odd track aside). Coco Moon, while not perfect for me feels like the best offering from him since All Things Bright and Beautiful (2011), and Vitamin Sea completely recaptures the Ocean Eyes era for me with a more mature sound, and other parts of the album have some really interesting experimental things going on.

 

I wouldn't have usually entered an artist this well known, even if "well known" is just for a historical couple of hits but (to slightly loop back to the previous conversation) I felt really hard done by when I DNQed with my 50th with Lights so this felt like a surrogate anniversary to me. I didn't even expect to necessarily qualify because I had no idea how well that kind of sound would go down here, but it looks like it worked out this time.

Personally I listen & vote blind.

 

However I def hear what others are saying here & my heart does go out to DNQs at a time when you do want something to invest in.

 

I wonder if we could put our heads together & think of either a special role NQ nations could have or even (this is now my love for excel coming in) some kind of golf/racing-esque weighting or handicap for either future contests or a spinoff.

 

Personally I think a contest where certain nations who could only enter after a certain number of recent NQs could be quite fun! & would pair nicely with the rolling lists that Bray keeps up ❤️

Or even an effort to draw/enter tracks in two blocs based on genre, which you could specify on the form when putting in your entry!

enjoyment is subjective and different people will find enjoyment in different things in the contest whether that be discovering new music or songs doing well, the second that enjoyment goes I feel like it’s just sensible to take a break

 

I don’t believe in bias as if it was true I would win every-time

 

like dandy* though I have started listening blind these last two contests I’ve been in by shuffling Spotify and I love at the end finding out who sent my favourites by checking the country, it’s like a surprise reveal to myself

Yes that part is extra fun. Waiting for the day that I love that metal track sent by Joseph! :D

Actually, third idea. We have an AQ every month,how about doing a wilcard draw out if the NQs for an additional AQ?

I wonder if we could put our heads together & think of either a special role NQ nations could have or even (this is now my love for excel coming in) some kind of golf/racing-esque weighting or handicap for either future contests or a spinoff.

 

Personally I think a contest where certain nations who could only enter after a certain number of recent NQs could be quite fun! & would pair nicely with the rolling lists that Bray keeps up ❤️

Or even an effort to draw/enter tracks in two blocs based on genre, which you could specify on the form when putting in your entry!

Actually, third idea. We have an AQ every month,how about doing a wilcard draw out if the NQs for an additional AQ?

All these ideas are actually quite inspired, and if I can add one more to it, which I believe was more apparent in past years, is having an annual "Second Chance" contest for one DNQ entry for each DNQ nation of the year, so the most successful countries like Summericia, Cor Lupus, Hendinia etc would play no part in such an event. That could remove some of the bias perhaps. :thinking:

 

Edit: I do think that in the event of a nation DNQing with an entry they love, they should be given one chance per year to re-submit that entry into a final contest of around 40 songs do it can have its moment of glory. That should be a standard in my view as then it’s a bit of a lesser blow when a song DNQ’s as you know there is another opportunity for it to do well again in the near future, and given the additional time, it might grow more on people in that time too.

don’t we already normally do rejects or something every year? that gives a chance for DNQs to be celebrated well!