October 12, 20231 yr Admittedly this is one of the stories I mostly haven't followed because it's so intense but... I've come across multiple different reports now claiming that some of the things claimed to have happened, namely the parading of a captive and the execution of babies, now have doubt cast on if they actually happened...? Sorry but when did journalists stop actually getting evidence for things before reporting them as fact, not even alleged or 'reports of'?
October 12, 20231 yr You didn't, but Smint did. Also, I'm sure you know what the meaning of the word "imply" is. :rolleyes: Netanyahu has been criticised often this year and had multiple protests for being anti democratic plus he clearly treats Palestinians and lower class citizens, easily expandable. Certainly deep on the road to being a fascist dictator in my book.
October 12, 20231 yr Admittedly this is one of the stories I mostly haven't followed because it's so intense but... I've come across multiple different reports now claiming that some of the things claimed to have happened, namely the parading of a captive and the execution of babies, now have doubt cast on if they actually happened...? Sorry but when did journalists stop actually getting evidence for things before reporting them as fact, not even alleged or 'reports of'? Biden said he had seen the intelligence on that.
October 12, 20231 yr Admittedly this is one of the stories I mostly haven't followed because it's so intense but... I've come across multiple different reports now claiming that some of the things claimed to have happened, namely the parading of a captive and the execution of babies, now have doubt cast on if they actually happened...? Sorry but when did journalists stop actually getting evidence for things before reporting them as fact, not even alleged or 'reports of'? Seriously?! Social media is full of evidence. The following tweets contain. very graphic images. That's why I do not embed them here. Do NOT click if you are sensitive: https://twitter.com/giladerdan1/status/1712145038442893540 https://twitter.com/raz_sauber/status/1712452624035844505 Edited October 12, 20231 yr by Voodoo
October 12, 20231 yr Hamas have created an ugly situation. Must say I am very uneasy at what is happening in Gaza and how Israel have gone about things, but the caveat to this is Hamas took the hostages and they knew Israel would do whatever it took to get them back. For all their planning of the terror attacks, they must have factored how Israel would respond as well. There is some encouraging news that Israeli people are furious with the Government for not keeping their people safe - whether deliberately (there is that astonishing claim, confirmed by the US that Netanyahu ignored warnings from Egypt a few days before). Yes Hamas are grotesque barbarians but that was priced in. That sounds the biggest scandal if true. Horrible stories of hate crime against both Jewish and Muslim communities here too - some Jewish schools are being closed for own safety. And both main parties' leaders here are showing no nuance whatsoever.Not going to be nice in our cities here either.
October 12, 20231 yr The news coming out today is really making me uneasy about Israels approach and our country's support
October 12, 20231 yr Why would they not listen to the intelligence - arrogance? Suppose it was similar in 1941 before Pearl Harbour was attacked!
October 12, 20231 yr There is some encouraging news that Israeli people are furious with the Government for not keeping their people safe - whether deliberately (there is that astonishing claim, confirmed by the US that Netanyahu ignored warnings from Egypt a few days before). Yes Hamas are grotesque barbarians but that was priced in. That sounds the biggest scandal if true. Horrible stories of hate crime against both Jewish and Muslim communities here too - some Jewish schools are being closed for own safety. And both main parties' leaders here are showing no nuance whatsoever.Not going to be nice in our cities here either. As the Israeli people have every right to be furious. A government should be keeping their people say, Hamas have failed terribly and the Israeli government have failed miserably too. The retric seems to be "let's have war, then judge us later" - it's a populist move and when the dust settles (hopefully) the Israeli intelligence will look very silly. Why would they not listen to the intelligence - arrogance? Suppose it was similar in 1941 before Pearl Harbour was attacked! Who knows, there were all sorts of conspiracy theories at the weekend (which I don't prescribe to), but there has to be some serious questions about the intelligence recieved and the general response to the crisis. The government and defence was clearly underprepared and it does appear as if there was valid intelligence, Hamas were planning something. There was an anniversary the day before wasn't there? I have some inkling it was down to that and probably pure complacency.
October 12, 20231 yr Seriously?! Social media is full of evidence. The following tweets contain. very graphic images. That's why I do not embed them here. Do NOT click if you are sensitive: https://twitter.com/giladerdan1/status/1712145038442893540 https://twitter.com/raz_sauber/status/1712452624035844505 I haven't looked deliberately because I have no interest. I don't understand why people look at such things. But what I heard was that one of the women who had supposedly been assaulted was perfectly fine and not where they said she was at all. As for the executing babies thing I don't even know why someone would do that. It sounds fantastical. Anyway. Generally I don't have an opinion on this apart from opposing terrorism and not really seeing the point of any of it. It's not my community to have any further opinion on really.
October 12, 20231 yr I haven't looked deliberately because I have no interest. I don't understand why people look at such things. But what I heard was that one of the women who had supposedly been assaulted was perfectly fine and not where they said she was at all. As for the executing babies thing I don't even know why someone would do that. It sounds fantastical. Anyway. Generally I don't have an opinion on this apart from opposing terrorism and not really seeing the point of any of it. It's not my community to have any further opinion on really. It's about genoxide. That is what Hamas wants.
October 13, 20231 yr Seriously?! Social media is full of evidence. The following tweets contain. very graphic images. That's why I do not embed them here. Do NOT click if you are sensitive: https://twitter.com/giladerdan1/status/1712145038442893540 https://twitter.com/raz_sauber/status/1712452624035844505 This is not to say that X horrific incident didn't happen, quite possibly this all did happen, but there is a lot of misinformation going around out there. Some of the claims of atrocities and evidence is from old photos, or AI-generated photos, or they misattribute who committed the atrocities, or whatever else. The fog of war is deep soon after the fact and I would be very wary about using any image evidence as proof that something happened. Anyway, I am very concerned about the Israeli warning to citizens to get out of North Gaza, there is no way that people can evacuate in time; it is contravening international law if what it sounds like they're planning comes to pass - the UN has already asked them to step back.
October 13, 20231 yr It's a scary time on the internet going forward during crises when social media (Twitter/X especially) has become such an unreliable news source and is drowning in misinformation — and of course, the constant demonisation of reputable news sources isn't making things better. @1712670535815991487 Ordering more than one million civilians (including a significant child population) to leave their homes in 24 hours is logistically impossible — and that doesn't take into consideration the amount of injured, the unrestrained destruction of Gaza they're supposed to traverse through, or even Hamas preventing civilians from leaving. I don't really know what to say anymore — watching the entire Western political establishment back this in the name of defence as civilians are caught in the middle is inexcusable.
October 13, 20231 yr This is going very ugly very quickly. Surely the west need to stop backing thus soon?
October 13, 20231 yr This is going very ugly very quickly. Surely the west need to stop backing thus soon? Excuse me? Israel has EVERY MORAL RIGHT to defend itself. Hamas & Gaza must pay for what they did.
October 13, 20231 yr Excuse me? Israel has EVERY MORAL RIGHT to defend itself. Hamas & Gaza must pay for what they did. How is withholding water and electricity from a population of 2 million+ and displacing hundreds of thousands of children in the next 24 hours morally acceptable? It goes beyond defence when you're using white phosphorus or dropping 6000 bombs in one of the most densely populated areas in the world — that is more in less than a week than the US was dropping in Afghanistan in a year. The entire destruction of a civilian population is not self-defence. Edited October 13, 20231 yr by blacksquare
October 13, 20231 yr How is withholding water and electricity from a population of 2 million+ and displacing hundreds of thousands of children in the next 24 hours morally acceptable? It goes beyond defence when you're using white phosphorus or dropping 6000 boombs in one of the most densely populated areas in the world — that is more in less than a week than the US were dropping in Afghanistan in a year. The entire destruction of a civilian population is not self-defence. The local population of Gaza supports Hamas. They should have thought about that before choosing to launch a brutal attack on Israel.
October 13, 20231 yr The local population of Gaza supports Hamas. They should have thought about that before choosing to launch a brutal attack on Israel. Voting records and imperfect politics (especially in dire circumstances) should not equate to killing civilians — anywhere. Palestinians are not collectively responsible for what Hamas do, just as Israelis are not collectively responsible for their government. There is no moral case for justifying atrocities. Sorry.
October 13, 20231 yr I get the feeling a lot of people (governments included) think they are playing an RPG on this issue. Coming from a place with a civil war in recent memory... Let's take a second here. 'Israel has the right to defend itself' etc. Israel isn't a person. What you mean is the government of Israel, the leadership, has the unilateral right to act on behalf of every person in the country and strike the people of Gaza/Palestine, because by virtue of being from there, the same place as the Hamas terrorists, they must equally share all of the blame for what was done. In the same breath as saying the civilians that died in the Hamas attack were a tragic loss and unforgivable you'd essentially line up the Gaza civilians to be shot one by one or taken out all in one by a bomb or simply starved to death by inaction, just in case they supported that or in case THAT might hurt the Hamas leadership. And you don't see any kind of moral issue there? Sorry Voodoo that's taking your comment as a jumping off point but I intend that toward everyone on that position. Like just to clarify what we're actually talking here.
October 13, 20231 yr How is withholding water and electricity from a population of 2 million+ and displacing hundreds of thousands of children in the next 24 hours morally acceptable? It goes beyond defence when you're using white phosphorus or dropping 6000 bombs in one of the most densely populated areas in the world — that is more in less than a week than the US was dropping in Afghanistan in a year. The entire destruction of a civilian population is not self-defence. I agree with your last couple of posts entirely. We are beyond war crimes and into genocide here. This just feels to me so much like Israel wanting to wipe Gaza off the map once and for all. And that absolutely terrifies me, because there are so many people and governments willingly cheering it on. Of course the world would be a better place without Hamas, but that cannot come at the expense of 2.2 million innocent Palestinians. You can’t deprive 2.2m people of their basic and most fundamental rights. It was always obvious that Israel would retaliate against Hamas and that the retaliation would be a thousand times stronger than what hamas did, that’s just how Israel’s playbook here works, but this is a whole different level of cruelty. What’s particularly interesting to me right now is the governments lining up to support Israel as they starve Gaza of water, power, food and medicine - who rightfully went after Russia so strongly last winter for destroying Ukrainians energy infrastructure.
October 13, 20231 yr Mark my words this is messier than Ukraine and Russia, I dont see this ending with just Israel and Hamas. Really feeling for all the civilians of both sides. This shouldn't be a destory all.
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