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The Middle East Today

Jupiter9
in News and Politics

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No they don't.

Yes, they do. They still fire hundreds of rockets every day, which means they have everything they need.

 

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What about humanitarian aid for the 230 Israelis who were kidnapped by Hamas? They haven't even seen the Red Cross yet!

 

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I guess I missed the memo about how to feed a family of 4 with a 32mm shell. 🤷🏼‍♂️

 

 

 

The freed hostages have reported that they were well taken care of, with food, water, and medical care. Which is more than normal Palestinians are getting right now as a result of the collective punishment blockade

Yes, it is. You couldn't be more wrong. It is surrounded by hostile countries. Iran is close to getting nuclear weapon and constantly threats to abolish Israel.

 

I know it is surrounded by hostile countries. Hostile, not belligerent. It is not equivalent to Ukraine in the sense that there are not literally lines of soldiers (in this case, Iranian or some other powerful local hegemon) on its borders about to wipe it out save for the IDF. In fact, that is what the IDF are indicating they wish to do to Gaza.

 

For all Iran may be funding Hamas, it does not appear as if a ground invasion of Israel is at any point on the cards and it is hyperbolic and insulting to those who have died defending Ukraine to insinuate they are under the same threat.

For all Iran may be funding Hamas, it does not appear as if a ground invasion of Israel is at any point on the cards and it is hyperbolic and insulting to those who have died defending Ukraine to insinuate they are under the same threat.

Hamas invaded Israel on October 7th, so a ground invasion is very much relevant. Iran is funding & arming both Hamas & Hezbollah. It is close, more than ever, to getting a nuclear bomb. Is this not enough of a threat for you?

sorry sorry, a ground invasion by an organised military state that has the ability to meaningfully dismantle another state - as Russia does in Ukraine.

 

The attack from Hamas was repelled, and Gaza is being carpet bombed into oblivion. Which the IDF do not need to do. They've already had their victory against Hamas, they've manned the border, that terrorist group isn't getting a win anytime soon. Yet they continue.

 

Of Israel's immediate neighbours, Egypt and Jordan are relatively friendly towards Israel as Arab countries go, Syria is still a disorganised mess, and so any existential threats to Israel come from Hamas and Hezbollah in Gaza and Lebanon respectively.

 

And as much as Iran does funnel money towards those, Israel's clearly armed enough to hold them off, as we are seeing. The urgency in this crisis isn't about Israel facing a threat to its survival, because effectively, it doesn't here. The urgency now is only about them inflicting misery on a civilian population, the vast majority of whom are not Hamas fighters.

The attack from Hamas was repelled, and Gaza is being carpet bombed into oblivion. Which the IDF do not need to do.

Why not? Hamas still stands. The IDF should'nt stop until it destroys Hamas. Hamas' fate should be as ISIS' and Al Qaeda's.

 

The vast majority of the people in Gaza are Hamas supporters. If they want it to end, they should get rid of Hamas and release all 230 hostages immediately. Very simple.

Edited by Voodoo

I'll ALWAYS side with the west, rather than with an entity that oppresses women, LGBTIQA+, Jews, Christians, etc.

 

You think Israel doesn’t oppress women, LGBTQ+ and other religions? You are utterly deluded if so, they were all too happy to pass laws saying people can choose not to hire or serve LGBTQ+ based on their religious

 

When they took Palestine and made it into Israel in the first place they went against their own teachings in the Torah which is that Jewish people will not occupy their own land they will live in exile, as stated by god supposedly. Yet LGBTQ+ is still a grave sin… pick and choose as always what suits them.

The vast majority of the people in Gaza are Hamas supporters. If they want it to end, they should get rid of Hamas and release all 230 hostages immediately. Very simple.

 

A claim that cannot be backed up, is exceedingly likely to be false given Hamas' undemocratic rule over Gaza the past 2 decades, and even if it were true does not give them the power to control the actual members of Hamas nor morally saddle the citizens of Gaza with receiving collective punishment for crimes they did not commit.

 

Since you are a teacher, I didn't expect you to be that ignorant on this subject. Watch & learn a very basic history lesson:

 

 

And this is an especially reductive history lesson. Anything that talks about ethnic groups in that manner will always be, and the point about Palestine never being a state in its own right prior to the 20th century is especially braindead as very few states in our modern conception of the term existed prior to the 20th century at all.

 

The fact is that for the past 2000 years, there have been both Jews AND Arabs living in the region of Palestine/Israel. Most of that time, Arabs were the majority, ruled by a succession of Muslim kingdoms (and at times, Christian crusader states). Palestinians would have just as equal a claim to the land as say, Slovakia does to the area of Slovakia. Slavs moved into the area of Slovakia around the 3rd-7th centuries, was variously controlled by differing Christian kingdoms, and then eventually got self-determination after WW1, splitting from their partner Czechia. Just they didn't happen to have, say, the Visigoths, come back in the 20th century, claim it's their ancestral homeland, not the Slovaks, and push them out into the corners of the country and get backing from the most powerful military power on the planet to do it.

 

Saying there was 'no state of Palestine' is historically illiterate and relies on a very deliberate reading of what a state is, essentially. Was Mandatory Palestine not an area within the British Empire designated as Palestine? Did Arabic people not live for centuries in that area of the world under the Ottoman empire, whatever the Ottoman choice of administrative subdivision was (eyalet, but that isn't relevant)? Most European families, if they go back that far, will find ancestors working on peasant lands without much geographical movement, and it's much the same in the Levant. Except in 1948 lots of Palestinian peoples were hugely displaced just as they had begun to develop a national identity at the same time as many other states under former colonial rule across the world.

 

Again, that is not to say Israelis should move. Many have been there just as long, those that moved when Israel was created have now been there 3 generations at least. But the historical claim to the land for Jewish people in 1948 who weren't already there was more of an emotional connection. Now it's a generational one. But it was generational for the Palestinians who were there and their rights back then were superseded by Israelis.

 

The terrorism would not be occurring if Israel had not established such military control and therefore poverty over the borders of the tiny corners of what was previously Palestine that they shuffled the Palestinians into. Now though, it seems that tanks are entering those corners with the long-term aim of pushing ethnic Palestinians out of their homeland altogether.

 

Israel is not doing any favours for Jews worldwide either. Those horrific scenes in Dagestan last night what with people rushing to find Jews. The actions of the state of Israel are being conflated with the actions of Jews. That's really not good.

A claim that cannot be backed up

Yes, it can: https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-eas...d819c34da08fd87

 

Most of the residents in Gaza & the West Bank support Hamas, according to surveys.

 

There has never been a Palestinian state. Before 1967, Gaza was part of Egypt, whereas the West Bank was part of Jordan.

 

Egypt *refused* to take back control of Gaza 10 years later, when it signed a peace agreement with Israel.

 

Speaking of Jordan, most of the Jordanians identify as Palestinians, so Jordan is the real Palestine.

 

As for what we witnessed in Dagestan last night, there's no need to find new excuses or justifications. It happened because of pure antisemitism.

 

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Edited by Voodoo

Yes, it can: https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-eas...d819c34da08fd87

 

Most of the residents in Gaza & the West Bank support Hamas, according to surveys.

 

I feel like you're not reading what I wrote, so I'll put it again for you:

 

and even if it were true does not give them the power to control the actual members of Hamas nor morally saddle the citizens of Gaza with receiving collective punishment for crimes they did not commit.

 

In any case that article admits itself that support for Hamas fluctuates as as they fail to deliver change and it is a small majority in a single poll taken 2 years ago in the immediate aftermath of another clash where Hamas comparatively 'got away with it'. Not good, but similar polls across the world show support for awful causes. Doesn't mean you bomb civilians.

 

There has never been a Palestinian state. Before 1967, Gaza was part of Egypt, whereas the West Bank was part of Jordan.

 

Egypt *refused* to take back control of Gaza 10 years later, when it signed a peace agreement with Israel.

 

Speaking of Jordan, most of the Jordanians identify as Palestinians, so Jordan is the real Palestine.

 

Again, you're not reading what I write.

 

very few states in our modern conception of the term existed prior to the 20th century at all.

 

However there clearly are a Palestinian people - not Jordanians, while the two groups are similar there's enough differences between the two that they're generally regarded as different ethnicities. There's never been a Kurdish state either, doesn't mean that there aren't Kurds in Turkey, Syria, Iran and Iraq (and god willing one day the four corners of those 4 nations will become Kurdistan) . Just as there clearly is an Israeli people.

 

You just seem to be making a lot of very simplistic statements that seem to be aiming to rubbish any idea that Palestinians are a legitimate people of their own.

 

As for what we witnessed in Dagestan last night, there's no need to find new excuses or justifications. It happened because of pure antisemitism.

 

Yes, those scenes are fundamentally unjust. Just like what Israel is doing to Palestinians is fundamentally unjust. You can oppose both, I do oppose both. And it's horrific that every time Israel's far-right government starts more hostility towards Muslims, we see across the world a rise in antisemitic incidents in general. The fortunes of Jews shouldn't be linked to the whims of a state in which they may not even live, but they are.

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Again, this is not collective punishment. This is absolutely necessary in order to free Gaza from Hamas. Do you have a better way to free Gaza? I think not.

 

The people of Gaza support the crimes committed by Hamas. They celebrated the massacre in the streets on October 7th. They are not "innocent civilians" like you try so hard to portray them.

 

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Edited by Voodoo

^ FYI, the punishment for being gay in Gaza, assuming your family doesn’t kill you first to protect their "honor" ( :wacko: ), is being thrown off a high roof. So yeah, "Free Palastine!!!!!!!1" :manson: :drama: :mansoncheer:

 

 

 

When did I say that Palestine was tolerant towards LGBTQ? You said you’d always side with those supporting the rights of women, lgbtq+ etc and I said they don’t which isn’t a lie.

When did I say that Palestine was tolerant towards LGBTQ? You said you’d always side with those supporting the rights of women, lgbtq+ etc and I said they don’t which isn’t a lie.

You couldn't be more wrong.

 

For example, gays in Israel are allowed, by law, to use a surrogate. They can also donate blood. There are dozens of Prides in cities all across Israel, including Jerusalem, with the one in TLV being the biggest.

Edited by Voodoo

 

Ooh, if only the IDF were as adept at tapping phones for this evidence to enable them to find out in advance of, oh I don't know, a terrorist attack on 7 October 2023.

 

Also - absolutely do not get the collective amnesia of those on the right to how anti-progressive they and their causes have been over the past few decades when it comes to gay rights, and just to conveninently align with them when it suits their cause to relieve their conscience over support for indiscriminately bombing innocent ppl, only to drop them under a bus again when it doesn't. It's grotesque.

 

I would have thought that thinking all people whose political and social views don't align with your own deserve to die would have been a basic no no when it comes to free speech and a free society to libertarian obsessed melts, but apparently not.

This thread is quite the rollercoaster D:

 

What does everyone think about "from the river to the sea?"

 

There seems to be a lot of discourse that it means from a specific river to the sea, the land should be a Palestinian ethnostate with any Israelis or Jewish people eliminated? But I don't know enough to judge if that's a reach or it's a dogwhistle.

It is a saying with many interpretations - some antisemitic, some not. IMO it would achieve more if the protestors who I agree with overall do not use that saying going forwards as it is weaponised by the media and detracts from the horrors actually happening in Palestine.

 

 

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