^Thanks for providing that background blacksquare. It's a difficult debate to contribute to because obviously it has become so heavily loaded and framed in a certain way that it becomes difficult to engage in. I support there being a two state settlement and it saddens me that something that looked increasingly possible in the late 1990s with Yasser Arafat at the helm, looks increasingly impossible today. The British and the abysmal treatment of all those living in the region through their weasley betrayal written in the Balfour declaration 100 years ago have a lot to answer for, and should be making a lot more effort to bring about a peaceful resolution.

 

@1392786019792084993

 

Israel has just levelled the press offices in Gaza, where Al-Jazeera and the BBC report from, amongst others. Will be interesting to see how they report on a direct attack on their activities.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Netanyahu is going to take this opportunity to just unilaterally declare more of the Palestinian territories annexed.

 

There isn't even a functioning government in Israel at this point (Netanyahu failed to form a coalition once again), you could be right that the increased tensions short of a full scale war will be helpful for him in his effort to try and forge a working majority and continue his spell in power.

This does tend to get twisted — especially by non-Jewish people who refuse to separate the two and speak on behalf of us, or those acting in bad faith from the right.

 

There is unfortunately some truth to that study. Have you seen the way the IDF use social media like they're influencers?

 

View this post on Instagram

View this post on Instagram

 

I'm not sure people realise the additional propaganda it takes to prepare all kids for military service — of course there is going to be misplaced pride and a feeling of duty to serve when Israel is taught to be so important to Jewish identity. I'm just really glad my parents moved abroad before I was born.

 

I have also found left-wing Jewish voices in Israel (and elsewhere) are purposefully ignored, silenced, ridiculed, and there is a definite fear of speaking out or going against the status quo. I mean, look at how left-wing British Jews have been made to feel over the past few years. It's really heinous.

 

@1393661394843848708

@1393661399893778433

Thanks for this! Very interesting to see the IDFs use of Instagram in particular

 

 

 

Lot of reporting in Germany is overtly pro–Israel, still somewhat haunted by the German atrocities of the past. The idea that Germany can’t be in anyway critical of the Israeli gov because of the holocaust is quite pervasive. The conflation those Tweets mention is very pervasive in even left wing circles in Germany. There’s been coverage of pro–Palestine protests here in Germany that, well to say they’ve been hijacked by antisemites would be an understatement, huge crowds chanting anti–Jewish hate and flying Palestinian and Turkish (???) flags. Further conflates the viewpoint in Germany that to express solidarity with the people of Palestine is to be an antisemite.

 

 

This is a topic I struggle to articulate myself well on. 😔

There isn't even a functioning government in Israel at this point (Netanyahu failed to form a coalition once again), you could be right that the increased tensions short of a full scale war will be helpful for him in his effort to try and forge a working majority and continue his spell in power.

 

The fast vaccine rollout in Israel and lockdown easing would surely be much more of a boost to his popularity though?

Watch & educate yourselves before you make such unfounded claims:

 

Watch & educate yourselves before you make such unfounded claims:

 

 

So I get the point, but I feel a lot of people in this thread probably feel this way too- you can have sympathy for Palestinians and be against Hamas, I don't think the two are mutually inclusive. I'm not sure it's been mentioned in the recent pages but I've long suspected both the Israeli State and Hamas use the media and the war to further their own agenda. While I can appreciate the photo, the root cause of a lot of the trouble is the Israeli State making claim for land.

 

But this is also where things get sketchy as when people support Hamas from the "woke left" rather than the plight of the Palestinian people, then quickly biases can quickly begin to rear! Both anti-semitic and anti-muslim biases quickly begin to show.

Personally I just think both Hamas and the Israeli government are self-serving idiots and the innocent people of both nations are suffering for their unwillingness to meet in the middle and find a peaceful compromise. The situation at hand isn’t really the fault to begin with of anyone currently alive as it started a long time ago but these two nations could easily live in peace if there was true will from both sides but any time one of them seems to be ready to call it quits the other one starts firing missiles or murdering innocent teenagers and feeding their civilians propoganda to fuel the hate for the other side. This war needs mediation, compromise from both sides and a realistic end goal, not a victor as we all know how that will end: with further unnecessary civilian deaths on both sides.

So I get the point, but I feel a lot of people in this thread probably feel this way too- you can have sympathy for Palestinians and be against Hamas, I don't think the two are mutually inclusive.

 

Quite - not to mention saying a complex situation can be summed up with one photo is obviously incredibly wrong. I have vastly more sympathy for the suffering in Gaza, Hamas though, no sympathy with their cause at all. I've not seen a single person in my circles showing solidarity with them. As much as the IDF are a bunch of militaristic hotheads who are perpetuating race hatred; Hamas are too, it's just the former have far more resources and power, and a more mixed reputation among people where we are, in the West we are far more receptive to Israeli propaganda like that Instagram post painting themselves as just acting in self-defence - ludicrous of course, as the existence of Gaza as it is is entirely due to Israel.

 

I'd be for a one-state solution where both Israelis and Palestinians can share power, it's the only long-term solution. I can't see two-state ever working out peacefully with the power imbalance that occurs when you put them both into the international state system and the more interventionist and powerful countries like the US choose one over the other, but with the propaganda in both these states amping them up against each other that's a long way off.

Personally I just think both Hamas and the Israeli government are self-serving idiots and the innocent people of both nations are suffering for their unwillingness to meet in the middle and find a peaceful compromise. The situation at hand isn’t really the fault to begin with of anyone currently alive as it started a long time ago but these two nations could easily live in peace if there was true will from both sides but any time one of them seems to be ready to call it quits the other one starts firing missiles or murdering innocent teenagers and feeding their civilians propoganda to fuel the hate for the other side. This war needs mediation, compromise from both sides and a realistic end goal, not a victor as we all know how that will end: with further unnecessary civilian deaths on both sides.

i obviously haven't experienced none of this so take this as an outsider's perspective but from the deep convos I've had with someone close to me who's lived in Israel his entire life and who is half-Arab the propaganda from both sides still seems super strong and isn't dying down at all. while a lot of leftists in Israel and elsewhere see through the propaganda there are still many cases of young people buying into the feud like it's extremely black-and-white. my partner had an incident when he was chatting to someone in a bar in Germany and as soon as he said he's from Israel the person just replied "You should stop killing Palestinians" and left. Not sure if this is the most rational way to respond without knowing a single thing about someone. he also felt that his relationship with a few of his Israeli Arab-friends has become somewhat more tense because of the recent events which further shows that on some level there's still a lot of resentment which digs deep.

 

Israel's conservative government (which cannot even have an election to stick, that kind of says it all really) goes backwards and erases all the progress while Hamas is pouring all of its money into weapons instead of trying to better the Gaza region / using civilians as human shields, I mean their buildings as bases, completely contradicting that they want what's best for their people. Both sides are kind of... actively terrible? Sadly I fear nothing will change until Israel has a change of government who would be willing to listen.

Edited May 17, 20214 yr by NoBrasNoPanties

i obviously haven't experienced none of this so take this as an outsider's perspective but from the deep convos I've had with someone close to me who's lived in Israel his entire life and who is half-Arab the propaganda from both sides still seems super strong and isn't dying down at all. while a lot of leftists in Israel and elsewhere see through the propaganda there are still many cases of young people buying into the feud like it's extremely black-and-white. my partner had an incident when he was chatting to someone in a bar in Germany and as soon as he said he's from Israel the person just replied "You should stop killing Palestinians" and left. Not sure if this is the most rational way to respond without knowing a single thing about someone. he also felt that his relationship with a few of his Israeli Arab-friends has become somewhat more tense because of the recent events which further shows that on some level there's still a lot of resentment which digs deep.

 

Israel's conservative government (which cannot even have an election to stick, that kind of says it all really) goes backwards and erases all the progress while Hamas is pouring all of its money into weapons instead of trying to better the Gaza region / using civilians as human shields, I mean their buildings as bases, completely contradicting that they want what's best for their people. Both sides are kind of... actively terrible? Sadly I fear nothing will change until Israel has a change of government who would be willing to listen.

Hamas is to blame. Not the Israeli government.

Hamas is to blame. Not the Israeli government.

That's a ridiculously simplistic attitude - as it would be to lay all the blame on the Israeli government. The Hamas leadership and Netanyahu are both far too stubborn to contemplate accepting a compromise.

Just to clarify in case my point came across in a different way, I don't believe that Hamas are willing to work for a compromise at this point in time. The Israeli government will have to make a first move towards peace because there's no way in hell Hamas are doing that hence my last comment.

i obviously haven't experienced none of this so take this as an outsider's perspective but from the deep convos I've had with someone close to me who's lived in Israel his entire life and who is half-Arab the propaganda from both sides still seems super strong and isn't dying down at all. while a lot of leftists in Israel and elsewhere see through the propaganda there are still many cases of young people buying into the feud like it's extremely black-and-white. my partner had an incident when he was chatting to someone in a bar in Germany and as soon as he said he's from Israel the person just replied "You should stop killing Palestinians" and left. Not sure if this is the most rational way to respond without knowing a single thing about someone. he also felt that his relationship with a few of his Israeli Arab-friends has become somewhat more tense because of the recent events which further shows that on some level there's still a lot of resentment which digs deep.

 

Israel's conservative government (which cannot even have an election to stick, that kind of says it all really) goes backwards and erases all the progress while Hamas is pouring all of its money into weapons instead of trying to better the Gaza region / using civilians as human shields, I mean their buildings as bases, completely contradicting that they want what's best for their people. Both sides are kind of... actively terrible? Sadly I fear nothing will change until Israel has a change of government who would be willing to listen.

 

What a ridiculous way to behave, I can't stand people like that. I mean at least he didn't go into a lecture about the IDF but to just completely dismiss someone because of where they are from is incredibly stupid.

 

Totally agree that it is far too complex and deeply rooted to be solved easily, but the discourse surrounding it definitely needs to change and there has to be international pressure on the government of Israel (as well as that already on Hamas) to stop provoking and making tensions even more heightened than they already are. It concerns me deeply that legitimate criticism of Israel and its government so quickly can morph into hatred targeted at Jewish people (as seen in various social media clips over last weekend), and the conflation serves only to benefit bad actors and those who wish to stifle any debate as well as any progress towards a two state settlement.

Does anyone think one state power sharing would be a way forward or would it be impossible to get both parties to agree to this?

Does anyone think one state power sharing would be a way forward or would it be impossible to get both parties to agree to this?

I've always felt that one state would be the ideal but that the chances of it happening are about as close to zero as you can get. A two-state solution is the only realistic one.

So the day after Biden calls for a "significant deescalation, both sides agree to a ceasefire. It is clear that America has a lot of influence, which it can use to get more dialogue going.

Good to finally see some positive news relating to this (though I don't imagine that will be the end of it by a long shot). This was a truly tragic situation and seeing people have a black and white view of who's in the right was even worse, I could barely even look at the stories, it made me so sad.

Heard that Russia had more influence than the Americans. Whatever it was it is welcome to see.

 

Still expecting someone to break it almost immediately

It's not going to bring an end to the suffering in Gaza, and I have no long held hope that the ceasefire will last. However, at least it has stopped for now, and I hope this renewed attention to the situation will bring more focus into ending the Palestinian suffering.

It's not going to bring an end to the suffering in Gaza

People in Israel suffer as well! :rolleyes: