Talking for personal experience..Iceland(a small but rich country) is an example of how socialism CAN work very well.

 

It's not without it's faults. Taxes here are high, but wealth disparity is much smaller that the vast majority of other places in Europe and most vunerable people in society are taken care of quite well.

 

Of course Iceland only has a population of 350,000. However the point still stands that socialism should not be unfairly dismissed in the way that it often is.

 

The old "oh yeah yeah socialism Venezuela *rolls eyes*" knee jerk reaction is lazy and rather tedious and boring to deal with to be honest.

Edited October 9, 20195 yr by mald487

False dichotomy. Not all capitalist governments are rich and not all socialist onrs are poor. There is a global rich and global network where the rich lobby and pressure for late neoliberal capitalism.

 

Go on, which ones?

 

Actually my rebuttal would be that people are not fleeing from and fleeing to countries based on the economic policies of their governments, they flee because of war, discrimination or poverty, and this happens in capitalist nations with huge numbers of poor people like India and the nations of sub-Saharan Africa.

 

My view on socialism is that it needs to be something society is constantly working towards to get right, and capitalism needs to be something that is constantly being let go of to curb its worst excesses. Because unfettered capitalism is just as exploitative and degrading to human lives as low-tech socialism, but the ultimate goal is something that is more socialist than capitalist.

False dichotomy. Not all capitalist governments are rich and not all socialist onrs are poor. There is a global rich and global network where the rich lobby and pressure for late neoliberal capitalism.

 

Question for Vid, if capitalism is the bees' knees, then why have the socialists saved the Portuguese economy and been returned on a larger majority? And why would the UK economy by all forecasts by 5% larger under a Lab gov? And why do the NHS, fire service and roads all work sp well when properly funded and nor purposefully Tory mismanaged? And why did Iceland recover faster by adopting socialist proposals in the credit crunch vs the capitalist countries?

 

It depends how *much* socialism you allow...

 

It has its place, as in the NHS, but must never be allowed to dominate, as Corbyn appears to desire.

And yet socialism is the future. Sorry :(

Well, it's the future, but it would be helpful to spread the message of HOW we get there.

 

Because either we die in a late-stage-capitalist hellscape or there is socialism. Increasing technology will see to that. Supporting parties that currently promote democratic socialism like Corbyn's, yet are still pro-business and creating jobs (see this rather wonderful policy they came out with today about a fivefold increase in wind energy) are necessary so we have less of a violent transition once people finally realise that life is not about creating profit for a tiny number of people to have more than anyone could ever possibly need. Which will become apparent at the automation turning point.

 

We have a new Corbyn song thanks to the fine people of Liverpool! They banned the sun and stopped Tory brainwashing in its tracks, after what the vile establishment did to them!

 

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverp...ce=facebook.com

 

I like it! Brings home the message that Corbyn is protecting the nhs from the far right Tories.

It depends how *much* socialism you allow...

 

It has its place, as in the NHS, but must never be allowed to dominate, as Corbyn appears to desire.

 

Corbyn is a democratic socialist — not a dominating authoritarian. Socialism polls well without the name (myself and others have provided citations before). People actually do want more of it, not less.

Edited October 15, 20195 yr by blacksquare

Well, it's the future, but it would be helpful to spread the message of HOW we get there.

 

Because either we die in a late-stage-capitalist hellscape or there is socialism. Increasing technology will see to that. Supporting parties that currently promote democratic socialism like Corbyn's, yet are still pro-business and creating jobs (see this rather wonderful policy they came out with today about a fivefold increase in wind energy) are necessary so we have less of a violent transition once people finally realise that life is not about creating profit for a tiny number of people to have more than anyone could ever possibly need. Which will become apparent at the automation turning point.

 

I think, perhaps similar to climate change, some people refuse to believe a future where automation and technology causes a massive impact on jobs and society.

 

@1184575029276745730

 

Another one bites the dust...

 

Labour now down to 244. 18 down from the 2017 GE.

I'm glad Corbyn has exposed how our two party system was just an illusion of neoliberals working together to protect the rich. Good riddance to bad neoliberal trash. She won't be missed.

Oh, using the ABSOLUTE CORPORATE LIE of Labojr anti-semitism I see. Goodbye, corporate puppet. She'll hop into a business consultant role when the voters kick her out and vote in a new wocialist Labour mp instead. Ba bye. Corbyn is fit to be pm. Bojo is not.

"I will continue to serve the people of Liverpool Riverside as I have had the honour to do since 1997."

 

Think you'd need to be re-elected first hen.

 

I would love to see how Corbyn had done if given a fair crack of the whip. If the man is so terrible it should be clear from his own merits - or lack thereof. There shouldn't need to be media stories parroted even on the likes of the BBC with its reputation for impartiality, that have zero evidence associated and just a lot of handwringing and fearmongering.

 

And I say this as an outsider who isn't even from this country.

 

I say again, if Corbyn is an antisemite, why has it only come up since 2016 and not in his constituency or within Labour in any of the previous 30 years in which he was an MP? - preceding this Ms Ellman by a decade or more. And if Labour is institutionally antisemitic, why was the leader before Corbyn Ed Miliband, with the members' second favourite choice for leader being his brother David Miliband - two men of Jewish heritage, within a country where Jewish people are a very small minority of the population, less than many other ethnic minorities. It just doesn't add up and it shouldn't take a rocket scientist to raise an eyebrow.

I'm glad Corbyn has exposed how our two party system was just an illusion of neoliberals working together to protect the rich. Good riddance to bad neoliberal trash. She won't be missed.

 

You might think that, but every moderate Labour MP who withdraws, leaves the remainder more left-wing and therefore less appealing to the middle ground voter - i.e. those who are necessary to convince to win a GE.

Stephen Bush mentions that she faced deselection from her CLP, but obviously that has nothing to do with her actions, it is DEFINITELY the constant antisemitism that Corbyn espouses and encourages by suggesting very anti-Jewish policies like rail renationalisation and ending Universal Credit.

Stephen Bush mentions that she faced deselection from her CLP, but obviously that has nothing to do with her actions, it is DEFINITELY the constant antisemitism that Corbyn espouses and encourages by suggesting very anti-Jewish policies like rail renationalisation and ending Universal Credit.

 

I assume he plans to replace UC with something else?

 

On a related subject, IMO a good move would be to revert to the former system of paying Housing Benefit straight to the landlord...

 

1. The landlord would be guaranteed to be paid

2. Landlords would be far less reticent about renting to unemployed people

I assume he plans to replace UC with something else?

 

On a related subject, IMO a good move would be to revert to the former system of paying Housing Benefit straight to the landlord...

 

1. The landlord would be guaranteed to be paid

2. Landlords would be far less reticent about renting to unemployed people

 

OR

 

Here's an idea...

 

Build some social housing so that our taxes don't go directly to slum landlords.

You might think that, but every moderate Labour MP who withdraws, leaves the remainder more left-wing and therefore less appealing to the middle ground voter - i.e. those who are necessary to convince to win a GE.

 

And yet left wing policies are EXTREMELY POPULAR, and even more so with names removed as we have shown you?

 

This red Tory just left and made disgusting accusations and attacks on Corbyn because she was gonna be kicked out anyway.

OR

 

Here's an idea...

 

Build some social housing so that our taxes don't go directly to slum landlords.

 

I was thinking more of private landlords on respectable housing estates.

 

And yet left wing policies are EXTREMELY POPULAR, and even more so with names removed as we have shown you?

 

This red Tory just left and made disgusting accusations and attacks on Corbyn because she was gonna be kicked out anyway.

 

But wouldn't that be dishonest - pretending that the policies are not socialist?

 

My point remains - if you get rid of moderate Labour MP's (by whatever means) what remains will be less appealing to swing voters.

Except it won't be? Labour polivies and socialist ideas arw extremely popular. It's not our fault the corporate billionaire media, including BBTory, is rabidly attacking. All of it will get refroemd once Labour gets in anyway. A one party state media is a disaster for democracy. It's time for a change.

Except it won't be? Labour polivies and socialist ideas arw extremely popular. It's not our fault the corporate billionaire media, including BBTory, is rabidly attacking. All of it will get refroemd once Labour gets in anyway. A one party state media is a disaster for democracy. It's time for a change.

 

Repeat that all you want - you are not convincing voters!