If you social distance, if you wear a mask - then the risk is FAR lower in the outside at a protest than doing your weekly shop over the previous few months when community cases were much much higher.

 

Yes there are some who have criticised both those going to the beach AND those protesting, however there is a huge difference between the validity and importance of both activities and therefore I see no reason to bring Covid-19 into the discussion and debate about the latter, unless of course you have an ulterior motive.

What a completely ignorant thing to say. You are ok to work from home in your nice little middle class bubble, safe from exposure. Try saying that parroted government sentence to the BAME community.

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/go...ties_review.pdf

 

Guess you haven't considered the thought that once I got back in to the country I moved in to live with my parents, one of whom is an NHS nurse so she's exposed every day? Or the fact there is a high likelihood I've already had the virus, but OK. Also my point was that Covid-19 doesn't choose to infect you based on your skin colour.

 

So the idea to fight and progress Black Lives Matter movement is to stand congregated with other people from BAME backgrounds who will then likely spread the virus to their home communities. If people choose to want to believe there is a no likelihood that people won't die from these protests as a consequense then that's on your conscience.

 

Anyway I feel people just want to be righeous in this argument. I'm against people congregating in beaches and I'm against people being involved in mass protests during a pandemic. It's selfish. A pandemic takes over the front seat when it's killing people. My view is there are many valid reasons to protest and protests are an essential and important right we have, particularly with this one, but we are simply living in a time in a time when you should only do it if keeping distance and not putting others at risk. Personally I hope the protests do not cause any spikes, maybe they won't, but it would fly in the face of everything we have been told for the last 3 months.

Also my point was that Covid-19 doesn't choose to infect you based on your skin colour.

 

But that is a ridiculous point to make, it really angers me when I see the government come out with ‘This virus doesn’t discriminate’ because it is an utterly MEAININGLESS statement that wilfully ignores the huge inequalities that exist in our society (which this movement is aiming to highlight) which do directly impact on who is affected by this virus - remember that for a proportion of society they will contract it and be asymptomatic.

 

The mortality rates from COVID-19 in the most deprived areas were more than double the least deprived areas, for both males and females.

 

In summary, people in deprived areas are more likely to be diagnosed and to have poor outcomes following diagnosis than those in less deprived areas. High diagnosis rates may be due to geographic proximity to infections or a high proportion of workers in occupations that are more likely to be exposed. Poor outcomes remain after adjusting for ethnicity, but the role of underlying health conditions requires further investigation.

 

Oh but anyone can be affected regardless of their ethnicity and that's more important, yes ?

But that is a ridiculous point to make, it really angers me when I see the government come out with ‘This virus doesn’t discriminate’ because it is an utterly MEAININGLESS statement that wilfully ignores the huge inequalities that exist in our society (which this movement is aiming to highlight) which do directly impact on who is affected by this virus - remember that for a proportion of society they will contract it and be asymptomatic.

Oh but anyone can be affected regardless of their ethnicity and that's more important, yes ?

 

You might have to put it in to some simpler terms for me as I'm not really sure what point we're trying to discuss. The virus doesn't choose to infect you based on your ethnicity, this is a cold fact, anyone can catch it.. of course there is a likelihood that those more exposed to the virus are likely to be from poorer areas, which can often include BAME communities.

 

As I've said before: I'm against people congregating in beaches and I'm against people being involved in mass protests during a pandemic. It's selfish. A pandemic takes over the front seat when it's killing people. My view is there are many valid reasons to protest and protests are an essential and important right we have, particularly with this one, but we are simply living in a time in a time when you should only do it if keeping distance and not putting others at risk. Personally I hope the protests do not cause any spikes, maybe they won't, but it would fly in the face of everything we have been told for the last 3 months.

You might have to put it in to some simpler terms for me as I'm not really sure what point we're trying to discuss. The virus doesn't choose to infect you based on your ethnicity, this is a cold fact, anyone can catch it.. of course there is a likelihood that those more exposed to the virus are likely to be from poorer areas, which can often include BAME communities.

 

It is true but the statement has no useful meaning. Like you could equally say that the same about Ebola - but clearly it means nothing as viruses aren't really 'alive' and therefore would never be able to consciously discriminate in the way you are trying to point out.

 

What is important is HOW it impacts on people and we can see that some are impacted much worse than others (age, sex, ethnicity, occupation, underlying health conditions etc.) so I find it quite frustrating when people use the argument you are using as if that somehow nullifies all the inequalities and unfairness in our society that this awful virus has highlighted.

It is true but the statement has no useful meaning. Like you could equally say that the same about Ebola - but clearly it means nothing as viruses aren't really 'alive' and therefore would never be able to consciously discriminate in the way you are trying to point out.

 

What is important is HOW it impacts on people and we can see that some are impacted much worse than others (age, sex, ethnicity, occupation, underlying health conditions etc.) so I find it quite frustrating when people use the argument you are using as if that somehow nullifies all the inequalities and unfairness in our society that this awful virus has highlighted.

 

Well yes I do do agree the important factor with the virus is how it affects people as clearly there is evidence to show that. But my point was that the virus doesn't infect you based on your ethnicity, but for many unknown reasons it affects people differently. You can point to examples of how one 24 year old with no underlying health conditons is perfectly fine, but then someone else with the same job, ethnicity, no underlying health conditons may be stricken in hospital for weeks.

 

My point from my side is the protests are selfish. Just like the beach visits. I'd also be equally interested to know how people's attitudes would be if instead of Black Lives Matter, if we had a bunch of Lockdown fanatics in their tens of thousands protestng in the streets, if the attitudes would be the same. I suspect they would..

I also think it’s unfair to label it as ‘social media hysteria’. People are genuinely worried, as Klaus said we don’t know enough about the virus to say it’ll all be over at x point. People on this very site have shared their fears that people are flouting the rules and not caring about others-check our Lounge thread for COVID as an example.

 

The criticism, as already mentioned in here, is people using COVID-19 as a weapon to bash BLM with.

 

It is fair as that’s what it is hysteria, not on this site but take a look at Facebook.

You're right — the police need to stop escalating situations and inciting violence.

 

I don’t disagree some police were in the wrong but so were some of the protestors some of them were out yesterday looking for trouble .

It is fair as that’s what it is hysteria, not on this site but take a look at Facebook.

 

I do have Facebook and I’d say it was a small minority of people being very vocal about people breaking lockdown. And again, I can’t judge them because I don’t know what they’re going through, what their fears are, only my own.

 

In fact the most anger I’ve seen over it is all to do with Dominic Cummings which is completely justified.

Well yes I do do agree the important factor with the virus is how it affects people as clearly there is evidence to show that. But my point was that the virus doesn't infect you based on your ethnicity, but for many unknown reasons it affects people differently. You can point to examples of how one 24 year old with no underlying health conditons is perfectly fine, but then someone else with the same job, ethnicity, no underlying health conditons may be stricken in hospital for weeks.

 

My point from my side is the protests are selfish. Just like beach visits. I'd also be equally interested to know how people's attitudes would be if instead of Black Lives Matter, if we had a bunch of Lockdown fanatics in their tens of thousands protestng in the streets, if the attitudes would be the same. I suspect they would..

 

Would the lockdown fanatics be protesting hundreds of years of systemic racism, social and wealth inequalities that have led to gaps in life expectancy, health and wellness, generational wealth, incarceration and so on? No. The comparison is completely disingenuous.

 

It's a privilege that you don't feel the need to protest and calling people selfish for fighting for themselves or others to have actual equality is woefully ignorant. I understand the concern, I understand how little we know about COVID — but this isn't people going for a jolly at the beach. BAME groups protesting despite knowing the addtional risks to their communities proves just how important this is.

Edited June 7, 20205 yr by blacksquare

The 7 day average for deaths is plateauing though, meaning that it remains at a high level particularly compared to other European countries, when it should be falling. The R rate has also increased, with London going from 0.4 to 0.9 and one area being over 1 (I can’t remember which, North West or Midlands??)

 

The debate can’t be put to an end once and for all because there’s still so much we don’t know about the virus. Every aspect needs to be monitored to analyse any trends until it is no longer a threat.

 

London will very likely go over 1 soon. I was furloughed in May and before then, when I was working, London was almost like a ghost town. I went back to work Monday and London is so much busier than it was. I've noticed a lot of people out, many of whom don't care about social distancing. I try to distance myself from others where possible, but very few people reciprocate and just walk whatever direction they want. There's a lot more traffic as well.

 

This is a very difficult conversation and it’s something that I’ve avoided commentating on everywhere and especially social media.

 

While I completely support the black life matters movement and I’ve shared a lot of it over social media, I just don’t think it’s appropriate right now to be doing the protest that they are doing. I fully support any future protests in the future once where’s not a deadly virus being spread around the world. Social media right now is incredibly powerful as imo that’s where all the protests should be happening not on streets during a pandemic especially when we’re still having hundreds of deaths a week.

 

The same people who are protesting now, three weeks ago were saying to stay in to save life’s for NHS. We’re going to have a massive increase probably now which isn’t only brutal for NHS but a lot of the people at these protests could cause the death of loved ones. I wouldn’t mind if we were close to phase 4 or coming out but we’re struggling with going into phase two at the moment!

 

Like I said I fully support the movement but right now when we’re going through a pandemic to having protests of over 20.000 just doesn’t feel right at the moment but I fully support the social media dominance of it and I fully support BlackLivesMatter because it’s not fair the treatment they received and change needs to be made.

London will very likely go over 1 soon. I was furloughed in May and before then, when I was working, London was almost like a ghost town. I went back to work Monday and London is so much busier than it was. I've noticed a lot of people out, many of whom don't care about social distancing. I try to distance myself from others where possible, but very few people reciprocate and just walk whatever direction they want. There's a lot more traffic as well.

 

And this is it really — the country losing trust in the government, the government lifting things when the science says otherwise and the cases are still high, and the media happily aiding them. Of course, it's going to be much easier to solely blame protesters for not being strategic enough.

 

@1269372907819610112

Edited June 7, 20205 yr by blacksquare

The Government are 100% going to use this an excuse when the Corona cases go up too and take no responsibility!

Would the lockdown fanatics be protesting hundreds of years of systemic racism, social and wealth inequalities that have led to gaps in life expectancy, health and wellness, generational wealth, incarceration and so on? No. The comparison is completely disingenuous.

 

It's a privilege that you don't feel the need to protest and calling people selfish for fighting for themselves or others to have actual equality is woefully ignorant. I understand the concern, I understand how little we know about COVID — but this isn't people going for a jolly at the beach. BAME groups protesting despite knowing the addtional risks to their communities proves just how important this is.

 

So it's OK for one group to protest, but not the other group during a pandemic. For the record, I disagree with protesting for both during a pandemic. But I am just highlighting the hypocrisy, thanks for taking the bait.

This is a very difficult conversation and it’s something that I’ve avoided commentating on everywhere and especially social media.

 

While I completely support the black life matters movement and I’ve shared a lot of it over social media, I just don’t think it’s appropriate right now to be doing the protest that they are doing. I fully support any future protests in the future once where’s not a deadly virus being spread around the world. Social media right now is incredibly powerful as imo that’s where all the protests should be happening not on streets during a pandemic especially when we’re still having hundreds of deaths a week.

 

The same people who are protesting now, three weeks ago were saying to stay in to save life’s for NHS. We’re going to have a massive increase probably now which isn’t only brutal for NHS but a lot of the people at these protests could cause the death of loved ones. I wouldn’t mind if we were close to phase 4 or coming out but we’re struggling with going into phase two at the moment!

 

Like I said I fully support the movement but right now when we’re going through a pandemic to having protests of over 20.000 just doesn’t feel right at the moment but I fully support the social media dominance of it and I fully support BlackLivesMatter because it’s not fair the treatment they received and change needs to be made.

 

This tbh. I haven't felt comfortable airing my views on the dangers of these non-social distancing protests taking place because as a white person I will never understand fully the struggles the black community faces and I don't want my comments to be interpreted as me undervaluing the importance for change. Considering these incidents of police brutality and misconduct are regular occurrences, there isn't a regular light being shone on the issue from the media. Now is the time and it's just incredibly bad timing that it's come in the middle of a global pandemic. In an ideal world, effective protests should be taking place WITHOUT undoing society's efforts over the past 3+ months of minimising the spread of Corona.

 

What would be a FAR more effective push for change while still fighting the spread of the virus is if all major tv channels joined together to air a BLM-themed telethon. Get black artists performing and talking about their experiences and struggles in the face of racism, get people to tell their stories of police brutality or being unfairly treated/abused by the system. Obviously this is probably too good to be true and there are a lot of BTS politics involved in what gets commissioned but radio, tv and internet platforms should be doing their part because then people won't feel like assembled protests are the only way of getting everyone's attention. Idk just an idea.

Central London is quieter today and there are groups of volunteers out scrubbing off the graffiti from the statues in Parliament Square.

 

I’m curious on a couple of the comments above noting restrictions are being lifted too early. Can you please advise what has been lifted too early, we’ve been in some sort of social distancing for nearly 3 months now. What amount of case numbers per day would be acceptable for you for restrictions to have been lifted?

Well less than 200+ would be ideal, but that discussion is really for the Coronavirus thread rather than here.

 

I do agree that while I do fully support the movement and the protests, social distancing and COVID-19 guidelines should be paid attention to by protesters and that they should be responsible (and I equally condemned all the idiots that crowded beaches as well). Though there were many peaceful protests in the UK yesterday that didn't go as bad as the London one went so I do feel it's the media being selective here.

Well less than 200+ would be ideal, but that discussion is really for the Coronavirus thread rather than here.

 

I do agree that while I do fully support the movement and the protests, social distancing and COVID-19 guidelines should be paid attention to by protesters and that they should be responsible. Though there were many peaceful protests in the UK yesterday that didn't go as bad as the London one went so I do feel it's the media being selective here.

 

Less than 200 is quite odd given no other large country who lifted measures in Europe are currently having less than 200 a day. It really baffles me how much people don’t understand that we need to get things moving again and people back into work.

 

I won’t comment further though as that can be for the other thread but saying ideally less than 200 before restrictions are eased is just ridiculous as that may not happen for 3 months.

You can't say I fully support Black Lives Matter but I am against protests for that cause. Then you're not supportive of the BLM movement. Sorry.

 

All you care is about yourself and all you want is this virus to be over so you can have your life pre-covid back!!!

 

How about people of color having a fear for their life on daily basis pre and during covid?!!

 

Oh wait that is not as important as the pandemic taking lives :rolleye: