I think the first problem with the UK is expectation management. Yes we may have been near the top more often than not until 25 years ago but the world has changed. Now you have 40 countries all able to produce good quality entries and trying hard. That means that you can expect to win around once every 40 years if you try as hard as everyone else. If you don’t try as hard you can forget it.

 

Secondly, having a victim complex about it won’t help, nor will blaming “political voting” which mostly is really just cultural voting anyway. We give Ireland more points than average and vice versa because we share more culture. The same happens in the rest of the continent; calling it “political” all the time is just arrogant / misinformed.

 

Finally not having to go through a semi is a double edged sword because it means every time your entry is less than very good your result will be embarrassing, as it will be ranked behind everything that has survived a semi. Most casual viewers probably don’t quite appreciate that.

 

So I think there are some perception issues before we even start on the song and artist choice.

 

I couldn't believe seeing so many butthurt British people taking it personally online this morning and thinking up all kinds of conspiracy theories and making veiled racist statements about those crazy Europeans with their CRAZY stages and WEIRD music.

 

Just don't send a shit song that sounds like it'll spend one week on Radio 2's C-list, sent by some no-name. It's not rocket science.

I genuinely think the uk result was pretty much based on the song, for me it wasnt the worst song in the final but it was one of the weaker songs and a type of song that wouldnt get people to pick up the phone and vote. Even that jacket James was wearing was enough to put anyone off.

Removing eurovision in itself, embers is not the type of song that would be a hit in Europe at anytime of the year and I would say the same for our own Irish entry.

UK and Ireland need to look at ways to find songs that appeal to Europeans and the internal selections both countries are using clearly dont work, the entries are been picked by a handful of people who to me dont fully understand what's needed on the Eurovision stage. In European countries most of their entries are hits in their own countries at the least but again this doesn't happen in the UK and Ireland.

How can UK and Ireland expect the rest of Europe to support their entries when clearly their own countries dont support it either. Mickey Harte has one of the best selling singles ever in Ireland which was hugely helped by the selection process and its probably the last time an Irish entry had full support here.

The selection needs to have a big event around the selection process to at the least give the entries a hit in their countries.

Edited May 23, 20214 yr by Feel_The_Fever

I couldn't believe seeing so many butthurt British people taking it personally online this morning and thinking up all kinds of conspiracy theories and making veiled racist statements about those crazy Europeans with their CRAZY stages and WEIRD music.

 

Just don't send a shit song that sounds like it'll spend one week on Radio 2's C-list, sent by some no-name. It's not rocket science.

 

‘Embers’ was hugely supported on radio 2 with 6 weeks on the A List.

America and UK are hand in hand the biggest!

 

Rihanna, GaGa, Eagles, Maroon5, Ariqna Grande, Beyonce, Jay Z, the TERRRRRRRIBLE Drake (well, Canadian, but he and Bieber came rhriugh the US music scene, and Drake came through Wheelchair Jimmy acting before that) and on and on. The UK has THREE big acts: Ed Sheeran, Adele, and kind-of Coldplay. That's it.

Bill Bailey has offered to do next year's entry. If we want something both bizarre and brilliant, look no further.

Do it!! Only Bill better to do it would be Bill from Doctor Who with a remix of the main theme, with a bunch of Tardises and rhose weird instruments on stage, with a Scottish jig bass running through the song.

I see that Damiano David are going to take a drug test (voluntarily) when he comes back to Italy. I understand why he will do it, to end the speculations, but come on? I mean, when did cocaine start to float mid air? :lol:

Also Benny Cristo got nul on the televote in the semi, and Eden did badly on the televote in the final too, but there are many other factors at play with those examples (not least the dire performance by the former).

 

I was quite encouraged at least by Tusse actually doing better on the televote than the jury vote (who’d have ever thought it?). I think The Mamas would have done quite well last year too, so no doubt it is a lot down to the aforementioned songs and performances just not connecting with the public, but nevertheless, history and this year’s results suggest that black artists do seem to have to work so much harder for votes (going by how many have underperformed compared to the odds). I dearly hope this situation changes in the coming years.

 

And if we want to include past years, Cesar Sampson, John Lundvik and Dami Im are probably three of the biggest "televote underperformers". I know all of the entries we've mentioned will have other reasons for their (relative) flopage but when it's fitting a consistent problem then it's definitely concerning.

I’m still processing Jeangu’s televote nul. Spain, Germany and UK’s failures all make sense, but for me zero for a passionate, stirring, charismatic and important entry from the host nation and with a good draw doesn’t compute.

 

Still shocked at San Marino too, definitely deserved ten times that televote score - Flo Rida proved to be less of a draw for votes than Cascada. International success really means nothing at ESC!

 

It was always going to happen - the sheer number of high-quality tracks this year was bound to edge out the "OK's" from the public votes, and all 4 came over as a bit meh in comparison. In a normal year they would all have done better, but it wasn;t a normal year - and Spain's Universo was fab and wouldve done way better than this one. Germany's Violent Thing was the best record of 2020's Eurovision and this lacklustre entry wasn't worthy despite being worthy in another sense.

 

San Marino also surprised me. At the start of the semi draw it sounded brilliant, at the end of a long contest everyone buggered off to make a cup of tea (and in my case to sort out getting mum to bed at 10) so I think that affected it's votes, plus it didn't seem as energetic as the semi after there had been many previous hyperactive dance bangers with leggy women in sparkly very-nearly-dresses. I think they all cancelled each other out and people voted for those sounding different.

Rihanna, GaGa, Eagles, Maroon5, Ariqna Grande, Beyonce, Jay Z, the TERRRRRRRIBLE Drake (well, Canadian, but he and Bieber came rhriugh the US music scene, and Drake came through Wheelchair Jimmy acting before that) and on and on. The UK has THREE big acts: Ed Sheeran, Adele, and kind-of Coldplay. That's it.

 

You are using the Eagles in your arguement there so if you want to pick and chose modern and legendary acts then it’s fair game in terms of giant acts. Plus Ed, Adele and Coldplay are three of the biggest of the moment!

It's not a nice thought but the fact that Destiny, Senhit and Jeangu all underperformed expectations with the televote sets off my racism spidey sense!

 

In my opinion, that is almost as bad as butthurt Brits saying the reason we come last is because Europe hates UK. Yet we did well in 2009 and 2011 - so did Brit-hating-Europeans give us a year off those years? How nice of them!

 

If anyone is going to make a sweeping comment that voting is in some way racist, you must cover all the facts. And whilst you can pick out the "she didn't do as well as expected" and "he underperformed", the facts don't add up to a consistently racist Europe.

 

Imaani - 2nd place 1998

Dave Benton - 1st place (1 half of) in 2001.

Jade Ewen - 5th in 2009

Blue - 11th in 2011 (5th place televote I think) (Simon Webbe)

Jessy Matador - 8th place televote in 2010

Loreen - F***ING LANDSLIDE 2012

 

To name but a few.

 

So, what happened to the racism towards Imaani or Loreen? A year off for racism those years was it?

 

I think the answer lies in hysterical Gay men crying into their prosecco spritzers when their favourite act does not perform as well as expected, trying to look for a deeper meaning and coming to the wrong conclusion.

 

Either Europe is racist or it's not. You cannot have it both ways when it suits you.

Edited May 23, 20214 yr by keefyweefy

Rihanna, GaGa, Eagles, Maroon5, Ariqna Grande, Beyonce, Jay Z, the TERRRRRRRIBLE Drake (well, Canadian, but he and Bieber came rhriugh the US music scene, and Drake came through Wheelchair Jimmy acting before that) and on and on. The UK has THREE big acts: Ed Sheeran, Adele, and kind-of Coldplay. That's it.

 

Err if we're quoting big acts from the past as opposed to big acts from the last decade I'll offer Paul McCartney, Cliff Richard, Fleetwood Mac, Pet Shop Boys, Paul Weller, and other number of acts who've had albums success :)

 

There's more money in the US music biz, no question, but if we are also including US-signed, then we can include Lana Del Ray as UK. using pure nationality and currently global superstars to emerge since say 2008: Canada 2, US 2, UK 2 is my guess off the top of me head :)

 

 

Embers was not the worst song, however it was probably the most forgettable or among them, especially having a meh slot. People may have liked it well enough, but it's just not impactful enough for anyone to bother picking up the phone and voting for it. We are sending the most bog standard safe songs, I mean look what just won - an Italian glam rock adrogynous group. In the top 5 was Ukrainian techno-folk :lol: Why do they think Europe would be into a Sigala B-Side.

 

However, he also was just not a good performer or really a good singer, they keep going on about how he's a Grammy nominated songwriter etc etc, but maybe there's a reason he's just a songwriter! He is not good enough to carry a song on his own, this was clear last year, so really we had a chance to sort that, probably getting someone else! The problem is, the BBC's attitude towards the contest has been so bad for so long, who will want to do it? Honestly getting James again I doubt was even out of obligation to him or because it was fair or whatever, I expect they were just ecstatic they didn't have to put effort in and select someone else :lol: They've made it such a joke, even though it is a huge opportunity.

 

But I agree we do need to manage our expectations, I can't stand the entitled attitude from locals thinking that we should win every time just because we're the UK. Locals love to whinge that it's political but like... if it was why would Israel be top 20 with what's going on rn? :lol: It only takes one song to reverse fortunes, look at Portugal for example getting the most points ever after years of flopping.

 

 

Embers was far from the worst song. Three letters were the reason we came bottom with nil points and you can read it on plenty of other sites today. BREXIT. Europe hates us as they did before we left but even more now so we could send the best song ever and we'd still come bottom with zero points. Wogan said it when he quit and think he had a good idea as he'd presented it for 30 years. Norton thinks the same but daren't say it but has hinted at it and seemed frustrated last night.

 

There you have it. No it wasn't a super song I admit and never top 5 let alone a winner but wasn't that bad and certainly didn't deserve bottom and what was the absolute HORROR which won. :rolleyes: Awful song and one I hope I never hear again in my life. Even the Lordi one was bearable. Where are all the great catchy songs these days like Abba, Bucks Fizz, Brotherhood Of Man, Teach-In, Milk And Honey, ones with a real catchy chorus. That's what we need.

Edited May 23, 20214 yr by common sense

In my opinion, that is almost as bad as butthurt Brits saying the reason we come last is because Europe hates UK. Yet we did well in 2009 and 2011 - so did Brit-hating-Europeans give us a year off those years? How nice of them!

 

If anyone is going to make a sweeping comment that voting is in some way racist, you must cover all the facts. And whilst you can pick out the "she didn't do as well as expected" and "he underperformed", the facts don't add up to a consistently racist Europe.

 

Imaani - 2nd place 1998

Dave Benton - 1st place (1 half of) in 2001.

Jade Ewen - 5th in 2009

Blue - 11th in 2011 (5th place televote I think) (Simon Webbe)

Jessy Matador - 8th place televote in 2010

Loreen - F***ING LANDSLIDE 2012

 

To name but a few.

 

So, what happened to the racism towards Imaani or Loreen? A year off for racism those years was it?

 

I think the answer lies in hysterical Gay men crying into their prosecco spritzers when their favourite act does not perform as well as expected, trying to look for a deeper meaning and coming to the wrong conclusion.

 

Either Europe is racist or it's not. You cannot have it both ways when it suits you.

 

This was a much better articulation of my point.

 

There are racists everywhere but it’s just the generalisation that annoyed me!

 

I think it's possible to acknowledge that black people and traditionally black music in particular do tend to struggle at Eurovision while also recognising the fact that they sometimes do well. It's not necessarily just racism (conscious or subconscious), but also the fact that many of the participating countries just don't have familiarity with or appreciation for either the music or the topics of songs like 'Birth of a New Age'. I was very worried about that song, even after being blown away by the performance, because I just didn't see it landing with many people, particularly those in central and eastern Europe.

 

I don't get the instinct to become defensive over this discussion.

I think it's possible to acknowledge that black people and traditionally black music in particular do tend to struggle at Eurovision while also recognising the fact that they sometimes do well. It's not necessarily just racism (conscious or subconscious), but also the fact that many of the participating countries just don't have familiarity with or appreciation for either the music or the topics of songs like 'Birth of a New Age'. I was very worried about that song, even after being blown away by the performance, because I just didn't see it landing with many people, particularly those in central and eastern Europe.

 

I don't get the instinct to become defensive over this discussion.

 

It's not defensive, it's stepping back and looking at the facts in detail, not jumping to a conclusion and providing a different perspective. Not everyone who disagrees will be doing it because they are defensive.

 

The argument can apply for all minority acts performing in Eurovision.

 

DQ for Denmark failing to get past the semi and Sestre doing relatively poorly would suggest a potential problem with trans-performers but Dana International / Conchita winning outright proves otherwise.

Vagisil (or whoever from North Macedonia this year) and the bloke with a long pony-tail failing to get out of the semis would suggest a issue with homosexuality but openly Bi / Gay Duncan Lawrence and the Serbian Lez winning suggests not.

 

If you allow yourself to hastily overanalyse without taking a step back, it will often lead to the wrong conclusion and may influence others in their opinion - which is a little dangerous when the wrong conclusion is given.

 

That's all.

Err if we're quoting big acts from the past as opposed to big acts from the last decade I'll offer Paul McCartney, Cliff Richard, Fleetwood Mac, Pet Shop Boys, Paul Weller, and other number of acts who've had albums success :)

 

There's more money in the US music biz, no question, but if we are also including US-signed, then we can include Lana Del Ray as UK. using pure nationality and currently global superstars to emerge since say 2008: Canada 2, US 2, UK 2 is my guess off the top of me head :)

 

Those were all CURRENT acts. Thr UK used to be much bigger than it is today in the music world, but even then, America was bigger.

Embers was far from the worst song. Three letters were the reason we came bottom with nil points and you can read it on plenty of other sites today. BREXIT. Europe hates us as they did before we left but even more now so we could send the best song ever and we'd still come bottom with zero points. Wogan said it when he quit and think he had a good idea as he'd presented it for 30 years. Norton thinks the same but daren't say it but has hinted at it and seemed frustrated last night.

 

There you have it. No it wasn't a super song I admit and never top 5 let alone a winner but wasn't that bad and certainly didn't deserve bottom and what was the absolute HORROR which won. :rolleyes: Awful song and one I hope I never hear again in my life. Even the Lordi one was bearable. Where are all the great catchy songs these days like Abba, Bucks Fizz, Brotherhood Of Man, Teach-In, Milk And Honey, ones with a real catchy chorus. That's what we need.

 

You sound like all thr salty Tory trolls today. You won. Get over it! This is what you wanted. Enjoy it!

 

It also had nothing to do with brexshit, as we have explained many times in this thread, so drop that victim mentality lol. The song was awful. When we sent Blue and Andrew Lloyd Webber, we did really well. That's ir. That's the secret. Send good songs, not radio 2 mor.

Embers was far from the worst song. Three letters were the reason we came bottom with nil points and you can read it on plenty of other sites today. BREXIT. Europe hates us as they did before we left but even more now so we could send the best song ever and we'd still come bottom with zero points. Wogan said it when he quit and think he had a good idea as he'd presented it for 30 years. Norton thinks the same but daren't say it but has hinted at it and seemed frustrated last night.

 

There you have it. No it wasn't a super song I admit and never top 5 let alone a winner but wasn't that bad and certainly didn't deserve bottom and what was the absolute HORROR which won. :rolleyes: Awful song and one I hope I never hear again in my life. Even the Lordi one was bearable. Where are all the great catchy songs these days like Abba, Bucks Fizz, Brotherhood Of Man, Teach-In, Milk And Honey, ones with a real catchy chorus. That's what we need.

We absolutely deserved bottom. The song doesn't deserve no points, but the performance absolutely did. You can't be content with being 18th favourite of the night and hoping to grab a top 10 placing in the votes. I'd probably be willing to bet that the UK wasn't everybody's least favourite, it was just unfortunate enough to be everybody's 11th-25th favourite instead. Literally nothing else to it. Sending a good song with an artist that performs with as much personality as a brick and with vocals as flat as they were last night, what do you expect.

 

It's a shame because I feel like the song felt like the most typically British sounding song in quite a while (like, it would have been a smash in the charts during Rudimental's peak in 2014 for example), but I just think the performance was bland and poorly performed (a concern many of us had even last year when he'd released that acoustic performance of 'My Last Breath').

 

Also factor in that it was the most consistently strong year in a long time, so being mid-table in affections won't get you far. It's better to send something more love/hate like Germany than it is to send a safe "aww that's nice" song.

The UK was ranked last by just 6 of the almost 200 jurors. If this was some Brexit plot to get revenge on Britain that would be a lot higher. The argument also falls apart when you remember half The voting nations aren’t even EU members.

 

But why would we let facts get in the way of Brexiteers now eh.