As disheartening as it is to see people upset with their performance in these contests, these kinds of conversations are actually not really that nice for me so I find it hard to support them or to be able to contribute something without feeling that it's being aimed at me (as well as a couple of others) in particular. There's one thing to be upset at your own performance which I definitely get, but then it always descends into sort of snarky side comments about the people who 'always qualify' and the unconscious bias being the reason that some people qualify all the time, diminishing and dismissing that people who do well are probably only doing well because we're being unfairly supported. So yeah, really not cool guys.

We have more than Dance and Pop tho

 

 

Trying to categorise things to the nth degree is a nice idea in theory but it’s just wildly impractical for an immaterial payoff

I agree with Phil that having someone have to make decisions about genres and which semi to put someone into is just going to lead to arguments and griping, and also accusations of bias if someone is consistently stuck into semis with people who consistently vote for them, and that would also apply to trying to separate nations that tend to support each others entries because they have similar tastes, Random is the only really fair system, and if you cant get enough votes to qualify that's a pity but it's not going to be a big track in a final if you cant get support from enough people to qualify in a random 50% sample.

 

I do agree about single plays favouring more instant tracks, and I have grown to love entries that I gave no points for on a one-listen basis, but I just dont have the time to play multiple times these days, and again to be fair to myself that's how I pick new tracks out for my personal charts - I search the new releases and they get one opportunity to make me want to buy it - unless radio or TV give it exposure and it grows on me. That's also the Eurovision phone voting model: most people vote on one listen of all the songs, and the slot, performance, staging all have impacts on distorting voting away from some that need time to grow - witness last year when one became a hit long after the contest where it didnt really stand out.

Tbh I think the best idea so far is just to hold a spin off every year where people can choose one of their DNQs to compete.

 

 

It’s nice to see ideas flowing but we seem to be drifting into them rather than deciding on what the “problem” is to actually tackle. I can’t see at the moment how making things more complicated is going to help - the more subjective variables there are, the more points for people to feel cheated without anyone intending that.

 

This discussion seemed to flow from people feeling disheartened. Even if we were to get rid of semis altogether then the same tracks are likely to finish towards the bottom of the final which would be just as disheartening wouldn’t it?

You're not alone Frank, we'll get through it!

I'm on a streak of 5 actually but 24th this month is higher than the last four, so I'll take that as a small victory. :cool:

 

Oh my, I have competition! :lol:

 

First of all, even as a DNQ queen I appreciate BJSC, all the countries and the people behind them - a lot more than I show it. Since my time in the DW group (when Land of DW was born) my life's changed a lot (many times), but I love that no matter what happens in my 'real' life, I can 'take' BJSC with me anywhere.

 

Like for many others, my main goal is discovering music, gems I wouldn't get to know without you all, but I do think that a bit of success doesn't hurt every now and then. There were times when I wasn't feeling the best mentally and 's¤cking even at my hobby' was just another kick in the teeth, but skipping some competitons did help and I could get back when I was in a better headspace.

 

To the DNQ discussion:

I know that it's a lot more work but I do miss the EOY DNQ competiton a lot. I do think that it helps celebrate the 'losers of the wrong semi', for example I'm sure Bellamia's current DNQ would do very well there and it would get the fame it deserves.

With mixing DNQs with all the rest of the songs (even the winners) we don't 'celebrate' the best of the unlucky ones that much, '2 DNQs made round 3 then flopped' is really not the same as winning a contest (even if it's only a top of the flops).

 

Semis:

I know that listening to 30-32 songs can be a lot sometimes, but I see only disadvantages of having 3 semis. It would be too easy to end up in a semi where noone appreciates your riskier entry or where you'd need to vote for all the fillers to have a top 10. If we'd have labels, I'm sure I'd simply target 5-6 people with my entries knowing that I will be (most likely) in the same semi as them and I would definitely not send anything remotely poppy as even though I find some pop gold in pretty much every contest, I wouldn't want to end up in a pure pop semi (and I'm sure many others would think the same way).

 

 

I've been a little bit reluctant to contribute to this discussion (although most have already stated my points of view) as I feel these same discussions happen every time someone's unhappy they've DNQ'd and while it sucks, I don't think it means the whole contest is at fault (and I've had four of these in a row recently!)

 

There may be some bias in the sense that some people that have been here a while know the sorts of things that do well over very new countries and would have people whose taste they know they can trust which may (may) lead to them paying more attention to a certain country than others for example (and that's still pretty natural when people have made connections based on similar music taste), I don't think it's anywhere near as bad as people make it out and there is a myriad of reasons why songs DNQ and even those that qualify all the time can flop in the final. A lot of the time it's just down to luck.

 

I really don't like the idea of unknown countries (I'm pretty certain this would make no difference as people's music taste won't change, I'm sure if you go through the anonymous song contests you'd see the difference isn't that pronounced) or pigeonholing people into genres, I don't really like 'indie' and 'pop' semis which random.org can occasionally throw up, but we have a very diverse musical spectrum here and I feel the genre splits are much less black and white these days, I would much rather listen to a semi and have no idea what I'm going to get next than arbitrary genre splits (where would hip hop fall, indie, dance or pop?).

 

A few things mentioned I do agree with are instant songs being more favoured thanks to shorter timelines which does make me hesitate with slower, more building songs which is a shame (I wouldn't mind longer deadlines myself as I have very little time to listen more than once usually, but am aware it wouldn't change a lot of people voting last minute) and it being a bit crap when you DNQ as you lose all engagement and there's nothing for you to really root for, and this is honestly why I favour the jury system as (despite a certain someone's complaints every time it happens x), the DNQ nations have a vital role in deciding the winner, it's a small consolation but personally I've always enjoyed that consolation.

 

And yeah, I'd have no issue with a yearly Rejects competition if someone is willing to host x

Tbh I think the best idea so far is just to hold a spin off every year where people can choose one of their DNQs to compete.

It’s nice to see ideas flowing but we seem to be drifting into them rather than deciding on what the “problem” is to actually tackle. I can’t see at the moment how making things more complicated is going to help - the more subjective variables there are, the more points for people to feel cheated without anyone intending that.

 

This discussion seemed to flow from people feeling disheartened. Even if we were to get rid of semis altogether then the same tracks are likely to finish towards the bottom of the final which would be just as disheartening wouldn’t it?

 

 

The DNQ spin off would be kinda cool. But does everyone get to compete? If so, this is possibly another opportunity for any bias to become obvious!

I guess if people want to enter they can :)

I had 4 out of 5 DNQs recently which was disappointing but I didn't think that was down to the semi-final draw. They just weren't as well received as I thought they would be. My last two entries have both done better. Sometimes I enter a song I know won't qualify but I want to share it anyway as it's something no one else would send (The Greenway Song, Suppers Ready etc).

 

Please keep to the random semi-final draw. If a song stands out, it will qualify. There are 20 places to be filled from each semi, that's more than enough.

 

The only change I can suggest is that when confirmations open, the finalists from the previous contest have to wait 6 hours before they can confirm. For the first six hours, only the DNQs from the last contest can confirm so they get first dibs on the latest popular song. I know if too many people try the same song, it will get vetoed anyway but as far as I'm aware, if two people try to confirm one song, it's still allowed in.

On Rejects all I’m gonna say is that it was rolled into TBO (which yes Wardy is in the works for this year) because nobody voted in it and that was a change that was received well at the time. Holding a stand alone Rejects is nice and I’m glad people support the concept but that counts for nothing when only 6 people vote in it - it’s just not viable to chill out on its own

 

 

Now if people would rather we scrap that part of TBO and revive YBO:Rejects instead I’m game

Yeah, I'd definitely be game for reviving "Rejects" as a seperate spin-off of TBO, if there's enough demand for it. I have to echo what Silas has said, even though I wasn't a moderator at the time of it being implemented - there just weren't many people voting in it, so it got merged together. But, obviously, as crowds and participants change, desire also changes so we need to make decisions accordingly.

 

I'm definitely very hesitant to the 3rd semi / genre pots ideas, not because I'm opposed to hearing change (and I love that you've all been throwing ideas about, it's brought about some interesting perspectives, for sure) but because I think it causes more issues than it solves, or it puts power further into the mods' hands and I'd worry about feeling like we're meddling too much.

 

I promise, if it seems like we're not receptive to different ideas, then we very much are and I wouldn't be against doing an anonymous contest again sometime soon, if it was in demand - it's not like it harms the contest (other than the fact discussion died off very quickly last time) - I think the reason we often seem like we're rejecting ideas is because all 4 of us have been in the contest since at least 2009/2010, so we've all seen at least 14 years of this to have seen what kind of things work and what doesn't. We have experience in trialling different ideas and them failing, and trialling different ideas and them succeeding so I think we have a better gauge now on the type of things to avoid from past trials.

 

But I certainly wouldn't want anyone to feel like they can't throw ideas out, that's for sure, I'm personally all ears and have read through each and every post in here in the past few days open-minded.

I’m sure someone suggested not long ago having anonymous semi finals and then the countries behind the songs are unmasked during semi final results

 

perhaps that could be given a try instead of going for making the entire contest anonymous? (as that would kill discussion off for the contest’s entirety)

 

although if it were up to me I’d keep it as is (anonymous confirmations then revealed once semis are ready)

 

 

I personally won't mind a Rejects contest but I also like to see Rejects competing amongst the qualified songs too, so that they can get their deserved qualification.

 

Perhaps we can reduce the size of TBO, which allows people to enter voluntarily with 2 entries (an NQ and a Q or one of the 3 worst-performing Qs if they don't have an NQ entry and a Q), the first fighting in a QF and second fighting in a SF (or combined if there are not enough participants), and 10 AQs of winners in the final.

I’m sure someone suggested not long ago having anonymous semi finals and then the countries behind the songs are unmasked during semi final results

 

perhaps that could be given a try instead of going for making the entire contest anonymous? (as that would kill discussion off for the contest’s entirety)

 

although if it were up to me I’d keep it as is (anonymous confirmations then revealed once semis are ready)

I sort of like this idea, but at the same time, like many, I like to post about my entry in my national thread, and that would not be permitted in an anonymous contest, and then if you DNQ there seems little point in posting about your failed entry, it would feel bittersweet. I am not sure that would be a workable option, but I do like the concept. Perhaps it could be tweaked somewhat.

 

Not really sure myself about the pots idea, but I guess we could see how it works but if it has been tried before then maybe it is futile to try again. On the other hand, it could be a success who knows.

 

A Rejects contest seems like the most convincing for now. Maybe an idea could be that each participant (who wishes to do so) does a brief write-up about their entry which is shared by the host to highlight or promote their entry and why they feel that this entry in particular did not deserve to DNQ and what the song itself means to the participant who sent it? I think that would give them the chance to shine the spotlight on their entry for a brief moment for others to see and take notice. I would gladly read others write-ups about their songs and listen to them too. :)

anonymous entries dont make any difference much to my votes - I watch the youtube videos and rank each with a score out of 100 as they pop up. That's pretty much what I vote for (the highest 10) - the only time it might make a difference is if I notice I've not pointed a nation in a while I'll give them priority over a regular if the scores are pretty much the same. Which obviously won't happen if it's Anon.

I'm much more disappointed in the results of the other Semi!

 

Danæviia, Pestolia and ESPEICALLY Trifoski (guaranteed my 18 points if it was in the final) were all great.

 

As for SF1:

 

12: Q

10: Q

08: Q

07: Scotland 2 - Car Seat Headrest - Beach Life-In

06: Séyetana - Tsukuyomi - Reason For Existence

05: Greenfroze - ATARASHII GAKKO! - Suki Lie

04: Q

03: Q

02: Q

01: Q

 

Thought Scotland 2 would have been safe, one of the best 10 minute + entries ever entered.

Just catching up:

 

These days I always listen blindly to the YouTube/Apple Music playlists and I’ve found myself predominantly still giving points to the same countries as when I used to look beforehand. It is nice when a country I don’t point often sends something I really like though - and I find myself favouring those I don’t point often if songs are tied.

 

What I definitely don’t do very well is give songs a chance to grow. There’s so many songs to listen to these days that I can’t devote more time than two listens through per semi or final. And tbh some months it can only be one if I find myself in a semi or final where I don’t actually like many of them. It’s not ideal but I’m not putting myself through it a second time if I didn’t enjoy the first listen through.

I don’t buy the bias angle these days. Look at FARC who perform really strongly despite barely having a presence on the board outside of the contest. Same for some of the posters who came from the popjustice contest. Plus Spod have qualified 3 times in a row from debut despite (or because) not following any typical popularity trend. Plus those that have long streaks tend to send solid pop/dance entries month after month. Take Hendinia as an example - not a style of entry that I personally always like, but it is definitely easy to see why others do and vote for their entries.

This is exactly how it works for me too and my countries are usually the same countries that I point every month etc.. but I always love it when a couple of country names I don't point often, pops up. I don't find out which country it is until I'm writing out my PM to the host with my votes and once I've hit sent, unless it's a country that surprised me by appearing in my votes, I don't usually remember who the country is that's sent what song because in all honesty, my memory is terrible lmao. So I won't know who it is until I send my votes to the final host.

 

The voting period could be 3 days, 3 weeks, or 3 years and most will still vote on the last day. We’ve had longer voting periods in the past, a week is optimal

On the voting period thing... I also see others talking about it too when it happens, but if the voting period doesn't end on a Saturday at 23:59 UK time or whatever, can we implement some kind of "24 hours voting notice" rule or something please? Even if it's not done by the host and done by one of the 4 moderators would be extremely helpful and handy. It's easy to forget that the voting period actually closes sooner than you thought. :lol:

 

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As someone on the outside of it all I strongly oppose to the "DNQ gets an AQ" rule that someone proposed (obviously appreciate the idea that was presented to try and come up with ways) but that rule to me feels really condescending and patronising? Almost even humiliating and kinda takes the fun of qualifying out of the contest. It can absolutely wipe you and your mental state though when you don't qualify for so long etc.., I've been there. But the semi's section is the most "fun" part of the contest because nothing is guaranteed, at least to me. (Idk though, just wanted my 2 cents on this)

 

Also, I saw someone (Joseph?) mention something to do with being hyped and then not qualifying being a hard one to get over, I agree. I kinda don't like the predicta/odds thread for this reason. I usually only input to hype up one of the songs I consider a favourite of mine that I've not seen anybody else mention because I do think that has more of an affect (depending on the member who is hyping it up tbh) sometimes than people realise. But again, perhaps this is just me, idk.

 

But yeah, as someone who now only fleets in and out of BJSC quite regularly, I cannot recommend taking a break enough. Especially if you're "thinking about it". It really does work wonders. There was a period where I only planned to take a one month break, but ended up taking more because it was just nice to take a breather after doing it for so long. There must be a reason as to why you're "thinking about it", is all I will say.

Oh and this is all ofc just my opinion. I'm not saying any of it will be the same for anybody else, just thought I'd give my two cents.