Moving best ofs (and maybe studio albums older than a few years) to their own chart seems like such an obvious first step to me.

 

I'm surprised record companies aren't demanding it already.

QUOTE(-Jay- @ May 19 2023, 12:23 AM) *

I’m fairly sure that hits included on both a studio album and a Greatest Hits contribute to both albums - not an “either or” situation?

 

Oh really? So songs get double counted? Sorry I think I'm confusing it with the US chart rules (or maybe I'm making them up at this point!).

Yes songs count for both the parent album and the (nominated) greatest hits package.

Edited May 19, 20232 yr by braindeadpj

The thing is the OCC like the album chart because it’s getting spoken about more than any other time.

 

Hardly a week goes by when there is not press articles/coverage and social media campaigns about album chart battles which in the OCC’s eyes makes them relevant as the coverage of them is so high.

They’re definitely happy to ignore this problem as long as they can keep making it look like album sales aren’t completely dead - which we all know they are! The general public don’t care anymore so why bother. I’d rather the chart be more representative of what albums are actually selling no matter how negligible the amounts may be.

This article is understating it by saying that The Lottery Winners didn't stay in the top 100 - they didn't even stay in the top 200! A number 1 album, and all the buzz that surrounds that achievement, got them only 880 sales the following week. That's from 25 different formats!

 

Yes, streaming is part of the reason that so many albums tumble so rapidly from the top spot...but when getting a number 1 album doesn't even make 1000 people go "oh, I should go pick that up", it's hard to really see the value of hitting number 1 in the album charts nowadays.

This article is understating it by saying that The Lottery Winners didn't stay in the top 100 - they didn't even stay in the top 200! A number 1 album, and all the buzz that surrounds that achievement, got them only 880 sales the following week. That's from 25 different formats!

 

Yes, streaming is part of the reason that so many albums tumble so rapidly from the top spot...but when getting a number 1 album doesn't even make 1000 people go "oh, I should go pick that up", it's hard to really see the value of hitting number 1 in the album charts nowadays.

 

Since streaming is the main way that people now consume music, it would be a 1,000 people deciding to stream it - which would be a maximum of 16 'sales' (assuming they listened to the whole thing and it has 16 or more tracks).

Edited May 19, 20232 yr by braindeadpj

I’d also strongly consider having Greatest Hits in their own separate chart (I would call it an “Artist Compilations” chart), as they’re a totally different beast in the streaming era. Unfortunately I think the OCC actually likes the constant presence & ever increasing total of weeks spent in the chart, from the likes of ABBA Gold. I think we’ve more than got the point after many decades that people consistently enjoy playing ABBA hits, but does that really have to be reflected with it being Top 20 in the albums chart until the end of time? :thinking: When instead we could see it in the Top 5 of a compilations albums chart until the end of time. :lol:

I don't mind the idea of separating Greatest Hits although I suspect it would just move the goalposts to a new form of inertia. No longer will it be 'grr The Weeknd's The Highlights' every week, instead people will get sick of Arctic Monkeys' "AM", Taylor Swift's "1989" etc. Actually depending on how it's handled, I'd think that they'd have to transfer a lot of those Greatest Hits streams over to their original studio albums. So wouldn't Oasis, Fleetwood Mac, The Weeknd and so-on just vault back up the charts with their big studio albums that are currently having a good chunk of their streams siphoned?

 

I think there are three main issues at play:

 

1. There's an idealised version of how the album chart should flow along that doesn't really match public consumption in any capacity anymore. There just aren't enough people browsing to keep the uptick on weeks/months old albums apart from the very famous few, which also comes down to music being so decentralised that there aren't really moderately famous household names in the charts anymore.

2. The streaming model over time does a very good job at giving people what they want, but that doesn't provide a dynamic long term solution. Most people have had their streaming accounts for 5-10 years. Even if they haven't aged out of liking new music, most people engage with music they discover and like by just chucking it into an increasingly big playlist where it has to fight for shuffle airtime with increasingly old competition. Having a music library is great, but unless it's doubling in size every year, it's impossible to keep it from slowly getting older and older.

3. Putting a band-aid on the charts doesn't actually change these trends. If you just get rid of the discernible 'filler', people are still going to be listening to it. There's no real evidence that someone's #80 hit turned into a #50 hit by ACR makes for an appreciable increase in exposure, and the fact that people seem to want ACR to go further (not part of this discussion, but a valid example) shows that it's done nothing to fight these trends. It just gives the illusion of chart dynamics but without the compounding effects*

 

*Although in general I often wonder, doesn't the notion of heightened exposure by artificial chart position boosting kind of bring the same problem? We're just wanting these bubbling under hits to reach an exposure threshold that if successful, will turn them into chart monoliths that we all want to go away. People make fun of a certain poster for explicitly rooting for songs while they're new but booing them after a couple of months, but everyone does it to an extent!

 

To that, I can't really offer a solution. I guess a Bubbling Under/New Music chart could give people the always certainly active chart they want, but I always think that a chart of the most popular singles/albums is always inherently interesting, whether there are 3 month parabola chart runs or not. Don't see why we can't have both.

I did laugh at the implication that Ellie Goulding was some exceptional outlier for not sticking around in the top 20. Meanwhile, per Jay's thread, there's currently only about a 1 in 5 chance any album debuting top 10 stays top 20 for a second week, with a large majority falling way further than #20.

The chief executive throwing Ellie under the bus:

 

 

 

Excellent points made, Dirca! I suppose it's just too far gone at this point... my yearning for an album chart that better resembles the way it was pre-streaming is certainly a pipedream.

 

Nevertheless, just for fun, I've looked at last Friday's Top 200 (12th May 2023) and split the albums into three separate categories.

 

Unfortunately I feel like I can't share what their actual official Top 200 positions are... but I assume these lists are fine to post given that they aren't real positions.

 

------------------------------------------------

 

Albums Chart - all studio albums, mix-tapes & EPs that are less than 3 years old (an arbitrary cut off point, I know. I feel like in the days of "physicals only" releases, a studio album being able to spend 3 years in the chart would have been quite exceptional... and an artist would have likely moved on to their next era within that time. So I'm considering < 3 years "fresh" for the sake of this post):

 

1. Ed Sheeran - - [2023]

2. Nines - Crop Circle 2 [2023]

3. Tunde - First Lap [2023]

4. Taylor Swift - Midnights [2022]

5. Harry Styles - Harry's House [2022]

6. Ed Sheeran - = [2021]

7. SZA - SOS [2022]

8. Tom Meighan - The Reckoning [2023]

9. Taylor Swift - folklore [2020]

10. Olivia Rodrigo - SOUR [2021]

 

11. Therapy? - Hard Cold Fire [2023]

12. Metro Boomin - Heroes & Villains [2022]

13. Beyoncé - Renaissance [2022]

14. Metallica - 72 Seasons [2023]

15. The National - First Two Pages of Frankenstein [2023]

16. Lana Del Rey - Did You Know That There's a Tunnel Under Ocean Blvd [2023]

17. Taylor Swift - Red (Taylor's Version) [2021]

18. Taylor Swift - evermore [2020]

19. P!nk - TRUSTFALL [2023]

20. Tiësto - Drive [2023]

 

21. Ella Henderson - Everything I Didn't Say [2022]

22. Luke Combs - Gettin' Old [2023]

23. Jessie Ware - That! Feels Good [2023]

24. Drake - Certified Lover Boy [2021]

25. Miley Cyrus - Endless Summer Vacation [2023]

26. Melanie Martinez - Portals [2023]

27. Pop Smoke - Shoot for the Stars Aim for the Moon [2020]

28. The Smashing Pumpkins - Atum - A Rock Opera in Three Acts [2023]

29. Taylor Swift - Fearless (Taylor's Version) [2021]

30. Post Malone - Twelve Carat Toothache [2022]

 

31. Becky Hill - Only Honest on the Weekend [2021]

32. Drake & 21 Savage - Her Loss [2022]

33. Jack Harlow - Jackman [2023]

34. boygenius - The Record [2023]

35. Adele - 30 [2021]

36. Billie Eilish - Happier than Ever [2021]

37. Sam Fender - Seventeen Going Under [2021]

38. Sigala - Every Cloud - Silver Linings [2023]

39. Dave - We're All Alone in This Together [2021]

40. Doja Cat - Planet Her [2021]

 

41. NF - Hope [2023]

42. Davido - Timeless [2023]

43. Fred Again.. & Brian Eno - Secret Life [2023]

44. Freya Ridings - Blood Orange [2023]

45. The 1975 - Being Funny in a Foreign Language [2022]

46. The Lemon Twigs - Everything Harmony [2023]

47. Clavish - Rap Game Awful [2023]

48. Mimi Webb - Amelia [2023]

49. Daisy Jones & The Six - Aurora [2023]

50. Tyler, The Creator - Call Me If You Get Lost [2021]

 

51. Morgan Wallen - One Thing at a Time [2023]

52. The Weeknd - Dawn FM [2022]

53. ArrDee - Pier Pressure [2022]

54. D-Block Europe - Lap 5 [2022]

55. Lil Baby - It's Only Me [2022]

56. Brent Faiyaz - Wasteland [2022]

57. Juice WRLD - Legends Never Die [2020]

58. Everything but the Girl - Fuse [2023]

59. Destroy Lonely - If Looks Could Kill [2023]

60. Sam Ryder - There's Nothing But Space, Man! [2022]

 

61. Dermot Kennedy - Sonder [2022]

62. Kendrick Lamar - Mr. Morale & The Big Steppers [2022]

 

------------------------------------------------

 

Artist Compilations Chart - Almost all of these are Greatest Hits, although Wikipedia has Becky's 'Get to Know' marked as being a compilation... I've included it in this list anyway:

 

1. The Weeknd - Highlights

2. Fleetwood Mac - 50 Years - Don’t Stop

3. Elton John - Diamonds

4. Eminem - Curtain Call - The Hits

5. ABBA - Gold - Greatest Hits

6. Post Malone - The Diamond Collection

7. Oasis - Time Flies… 1994-2009

8. Queen - Greatest Hits

9. Michael Jackson - The Essential

10. Little Mix - Between Us

 

11. Eminem - Curtain Call 2

12. Elvis Presley - Elv1s - 30 #1 Hits

13. Whitney Houston - I Will Always Love You - The Best Of

14. 50 Cent - Best Of

15. Maroon 5 - Singles

16. The Beatles - 1

17. Bob Marley & the Wailers - Legend

18. David Bowie - Legacy

19. Foo Fighters - The Essential

20. George Michael - Twenty Five

 

21. Red Hot Chili Peppers - Greatest Hits

22. Green Day - Greatest Hits - God's Favorite Band

23. P!nk - Greatest Hits… So Far!!!

24. Lionel Richie & The Commodores - The Definitive Collection

25. XXXTENTACION - Look at Me! - The Album

26. Billy Joel - Piano Man - The Very Best Of

27. Britney Spears - The Singles Collection

28. Pitbull - Greatest Hits

29. The Killers - Direct Hits 2003-2013

30. Nicki Minaj - Queen Radio - Volume 1

 

31. Nirvana - Nirvana

32. Phil Collins - The Singles

33. The Smiths - The Sound Of

34. Stevie Wonder - The Definitive Collection

35. Guns N' Roses - Greatest Hits

36. Madonna - Finally Enough Love - #1s Remixed

37. Bon Jovi - Greatest Hits

38. 2Pac - Greatest Hits

39. The Notorious B.I.G. - Greatest Hits

40. The Cure - Greatest Hits

 

41. Bruce Springsteen - Greatest Hits

42. Celine Dion - My Love - The Essential Collection

43. Dire Straits & Mark Knopfler - Private Investigations - The Best Of

44. Blink 182 - Greatest Hits

45. Pink Floyd - A Foot in the Door - The Best Of

46. The Stone Roses - The Very Best Of

47. U2 - U218: Singles

48. Bee Gees - Timeless - The All-Time Greatest Hits

49. The Script - Tales from the Script - Greatest Hits

50. Jason Derulo - Platinum Hits

 

51. The Smiths - Hatful of Hollow

52. Becky Hill - Get to Know

53. UB40 - The Very Best Of - 1980-2000

54. Stereophonics - Best Of - Decade in the Sun

55. Jonas Brothers - The Family Business

56. Dolly Parton - Diamonds & Rhinestones - The Greatest Hits Collection

57. Blur - The Best Of

58. The Rolling Stones - Hot Rocks 1964-1971

59. Simon & Garfunkel - Greatest Hits - Remastered

60. Marvin Gaye - The Very Best Of

 

61. Take That - Odyssey

62. Queen - Greatest Hits I II & III - The Platinum Collection

63. Sean Paul - Dutty Classics Collection

64. Destiny's Child - #1's

 

------------------------------------------------

 

Artist Catalogue Chart - Studio albums, mix-tapes & EPs that are older than 3 years:

 

1. Lewis Capaldi - Divinely Uninspired to a Hellish Extent

2. Taylor Swift - 1989

3. Ed Sheeran - ÷

4. Taylor Swift - Lover

5. Arctic Monkeys - AM

6. Taylor Swift - Speak Now

7. Taylor Swift - reputation

8. Fleetwood Mac - Rumours

9. The Weeknd - Starboy

10. Lana Del Rey - Born to Die

 

11. Oasis - (What's the Story) Morning Glory?

12. Harry Styles - Fine Line

13. Katy Perry - Teenage Dream

14. Arctic Monkeys - Whatever People Say I Am, That's What I'm Not

15. Adele - 25

16. Adele - 21

17. Bruno Mars - Doo-Wops & Hooligans

18. Post Malone - Hollywood's Bleeding

19. Oasis - Definitely Maybe

20. Ed Sheeran - x

 

21. 50 Cent - Get Rich or Die Tryin'

22. Dua Lipa - Dua Lipa

23. Lady Gaga - The Fame

24. Dua Lipa - Future Nostalgia

25. Kanye West - Graduation

26. The Weeknd - After Hours

27. Sam Smith - In the Lonely Hour

28. Eminem - The Eminem Show

29. Post Malone - Beerbongs & Bentleys

30. Billie Eilish - Don't Smile at Me

 

31. Ed Sheeran - No. 6 Collaborations Project

32. Lana Del Rey - Norman F**king Rockwell!

33. SZA - Ctrl

34. Rihanna - Good Girl Gone Bad

35. Billie Eilish - When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go?

36. Arctic Monkeys - Favourite Worst Nightmare

37. Amy Winehouse - Back to Black

38. Tyler, The Creator - Igor

39. Rihanna - Anti

40. Nirvana - Nevermind

 

41. Harry Styles - Harry Styles

42. David Guetta - One Love

43. Melanie Martinez - Cry Baby

44. The Weeknd - Beauty Behind the Madness

45. Drake - Scorpion

46. The Stone Roses - The Stone Roses

47. Lana Del Rey - Ultraviolence

48. Pink Floyd - The Dark Side of the Moon

49. Jess Glynne - I Cry When I Laugh

50. Ed Sheeran - +

 

51. Post Malone - Stoney

52. Calvin Harris - 18 Months

53. Dermot Kennedy - Without Fear

54. Lil Baby - My Turn

55. Dr Dre - 2001

56. Dave - Psychodrama

57. Drake - More Life

58. Drake - Take Care

59. Juice WRLD - Goodbye & Good Riddance

60. Frank Ocean - Blonde

 

61. Drake - Views

62. Travis Scott - Astroworld

63. AC/DC - Iron Man 2 (OST)

64. Kanye West - My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy

65. Hozier - Hozier

66. Sam Fender - Hypersonic Missiles

67. Metallica - Metallica

68. Kendrick Lamar - Damn

69. Linkin Park - Hybrid Theory

70. The 1975 - The 1975

 

71. ABBA - Voulez-Vous

72. XXXTENTACION - ?

73. Kendrick Lamar - good kid, m.A.A.d city

74. Florence + the Machine - Ceremonials

 

------------------------------------------------

 

If I've got all the years of release correct in that first list, then that's just 29 albums (or mix-tapes/EPs) released in 2023, featuring in a 2023 weekly Top 200 chart.

 

This is a list of albums newly released in 2023 which made the Top 10, but weren't in the Top 200 on 12th May 2023:

 

#1s:

Gorillaz - Cracker Island

Shania Twain - Queen of Me

Sam Smith - Gloria

Paramore - This Is Why

U2 - Songs of Surrender

The Lathums - From Nothing to a Little Bit More

The Reytons - What's Rock and Roll

Ellie Goulding - Higher Than Heaven

Enter Shikari - A Kiss for the Whole World

The Lottery Winners - Anxiety Replacement Therapy

 

#2s:

Raye - My 21st Century Blues

Depeche Mode - Memento Mori

Slowthai - Ugly

Inhaler - Cuts & Bruises

The 1975 - Live with the Philharmonic Orchestra

 

#3s:

Fall Out Boy - So Much (For) Stardust

Sleaford Mods - UK GRIM

Those Damn Crows - Inhale/Exhale

Gracie Abrams - Good Riddance

DMA'S - How Many Dreams?

 

#4s:

Pink Floyd - The Dark Side of the Moon (Live at Wembley 1974)

You Me at Six - Truth Decay

Taylor Swift - folklore: the long pond studio sessions

 

#5s:

Adam Lambert - High Drama

Måneskin - Rush

 

#6s:

Gaz Coombes - Turn the Car Around

Black Star Riders - Wrong Side of Paradise

Orbital - Optical Delusion

Black Honey - A Fistful of Peaches

Reverend & The Makers - Heatwave in the Cold North

 

#7s:

Young Fathers - Heavy Heavy

 

#9s:

Eva Cassidy, London Symphony Orchestra & Christopher Willis - I Can Only Be Me (Orchestral)

Bob Dylan - The Bootleg Series Vol. 17: Fragments – Time Out of Mind Sessions (1996–1997)

De La Soul - 3 Feet High and Rising [Reissue of 1989 album]

The Damned - Darkadelic

 

#10s:

Waterparks - Intellectual Property

 

(and the albums by Freya Ridings, Jessie Ware, The National and Everything but the Girl are only 2 or 3 weeks old, so they'll be gone soon enough)

I agree with compilations being exiled

but not sure about >3 old albums

recently many old albums charts cos of being reissued on vinyl and you would ignore those sales if >3 yr old albums were vanished

You could add a rule where if they’re not top 100 and are looking to return to the top 40 then they’d reappear. But that chart without old albums and compilations just looks so much better.

I agree with compilations being exiled

but not sure about >3 old albums

recently many old albums charts cos of being reissued on vinyl and you would ignore those sales if >3 yr old albums were vanished

True, there's cases where it's at least quite interesting to see old albums back in the chart which are never there usually, some that could even get new peaks. Like Impossible Princess by Kylie last year. Although these reissues are almost always one week wonders. I'm sure we'll see Girls Aloud's debut album back in June for just one week before it disappears forever.

 

I just find it so boring to see the charts clogged up with ancient studio albums such as Teenage Dream though, there mainly because they behave like pseudo Greatest Hits albums!

Also need soundtrack chart put on The Greatest Showman in there compilation chart mess to get that 1 most year and other soundtrack albums clog it only when now album come out get new number 1 then week after back to The Greatest Showman

I agree with compilations being exiled

but not sure about >3 old albums

recently many old albums charts cos of being reissued on vinyl and you would ignore those sales if >3 yr old albums were vanished

 

I don’t think they should be moved to a separate chart but an albums ACR type rule would definitely be good I think. Actual sales should still count but the impact of streaming should certainly be reduced after a certain point

yes most of the old albums charting are pseudo-GH like The Fame, Teenage Dream, etc

and I reckon most of their streams come from This is Katy Perry rather than people streaming the album

actually the album is not in the Kworb top 200 albums, so makes sense

 

but it's not black and white and not always easy to tell like with Taylor or Lana

are people streaming the albums proper or streaming This is Lana?

Cos Lana's and Taylor's albums are charting, many are in the Kworb top 200 albums

so sure they have more proper streams than Teenage Dream for instance

 

 

 

 

Might be worth noting as a case where this action has taken place, New Zealand just out of nowhere sharpened up their recurrency rules last month. Now anything 18 months or older is exiled to a catalogue chart. With regard to renewed popularity of all kinds, they have it covered where re-issues/first time hits (not actually sure what exceptions they make at this stage) get a 10 week grace period. So for instance Tyler, The Creator is climbing up at the moment with "See You Again" but will be removed from the chart 7 weeks from now (I assume). Truth be told, as someone who's not really a fan of mucking around with the chart like that, it's not a bad implementation of it (though I'm very curious what they do with Christmas music later this year).

yes most of the old albums charting are pseudo-GH like The Fame, Teenage Dream, etc

and I reckon most of their streams come from This is Katy Perry rather than people streaming the album

 

Not sure, considering 7 out of first 10 tracks on either This Is Katy Perry or This Is Lady Gaga are not on those albums. Especially for Gaga, Born This Way is equally or even better represented.

Edited May 19, 20232 yr by Sour Candy

I'd do exactly what Jay has done - makes much more sense

Since streaming is the main way that people now consume music, it would be a 1,000 people deciding to stream it - which would be a maximum of 16 'sales' (assuming they listened to the whole thing and it has 16 or more tracks).

 

I suppose so...but considering the opening track on The Lottery Winners' album has only 27k streams on Spotify, I think it is safe to say that the album hitting number 1 didn't lead to that many people checking it out.

I wouldn't say that. A number still manage 1k+ in streaming sales (Ellie Goulding, Jessie Ware, Enter Shikari & The Lathums as recent examples). Removing the downweighting of the top 2 songs to the average of the next 14 would have a noticeable impact for a lot of acts, even those that aren't necassrily big streaming forces. Given the sales differences get smaller and smaller the lower down the chart you go, it would likely soften falls. So instead of Jessie's 3-68 & Ellie's 1-84 they would be more likely to do something of 3-42 & 1-62.

Those are bad examples, as neither Ellie nor Jessie had hit singles on their albums. What's more, they are not Top 100 in the Streaming

Albums chart anyway. No rule change can make a hit album out of an album that doesn't get consumed beyond its first week.

Edited May 19, 20232 yr by Voodoo