United States are really on a mission to destroy themselves starting with the rest of the world. The news surrounding orange idiot and his service dogs are absolute bonkers and it doesn’t stop.

The thing that gets me most is why is the sitting US Vice-President, at a security summit in Europe, on the subject of the Ukraine-Russia war, lecturing his so-called allies about free speech and calling the greatest threat as 'from within'? Fascistic nonsense that cares not one bit about the murderous regime sitting on Europe's borders.

 

The speech had 2 aims: rally the troops back home by spreading propaganda that they swallow wholesale. Tick job done, all fired up so they dont notice they are losing democratic freedoms back home and will soon be very much worse off. The other was to fire up the shit-stirring far right in Europe so they can get a boost to achieve their fascist dreams. While that's not apparent yet on X, I do see a lot of UK Trump supporters going "yes but" and basically saying let the dictators have their way cos I'm all right Jack and I dont see why I should have to pay for some other spongers.

 

 

 

 

While I'm here I might as well add in this rant not entirely unrelated to my above comment. Selfish people basically are always around and not caring about anyone but themselves, but they are happily displaying it now, as opposed to moaning behind closed doors in case someone noticed they were dicks. Short-termists with no grasp of consequences in the long run, basically, and limited morality. I realise I'm being judgemental and sweeping here, two unhelpful things as a rule, but I've had a decade of offering up measured and rational warnings to anyone happy to listen, about the importance of looking at likely consequences and what was bleedingly-obviously (another fave catchy little quip of mine) going to happen, and people in general always default to the "oh everything will be alright", think I'm over-reacting, and move on to what's on telly instead.

 

Meanwhile the West has been giving ammunition to dictators to use against democracy and is the left's failure in all this. Trying to impose new views, theories and policies that have not been offered up for a vote after being thoroughly and publicly discussed and not working on sorting rational compromises where needed was always going to end badly. I said so over 5 years ago and here we are. People talked about things offline instead of online to avoid getting personally attacked and ruined, and guess what? The majority of people seem to hold similar views. This most-likely made the difference in a wafer-thin election result (assuming Musk wasn't also "involved") and now all those advances are under risk in the USA. That's something other democracies might want to ponder.

 

 

 

 

 

And if you watch this speech, clear as day who is funding the shite spouted and what their agenda is too. The US is literally unhinged right now. Irony of Vance telling Europe we've lost democracy, when this current Government wanted a coup. f*** those arseholes. I think the right wing forget that Twitter is basically an echo chamber, when you start doing shite like this it's easy to turn people off America.

 

It’s easy to say that but everybody is mostly in their own echo chamber. The reality is Trump won and the most Trump like party in the UK is currently topping the polls. So at what point is it not an echo chamber but a reflection of a substantial view.

 

The majority of people are not worried about Russia, they’re worried about their countries going in the wrong direction and that’s something Vance and Trump are willing to state and if others are not then I’m sure it’ll only increase those people stating that and others can either pretend everyone is Russian stooges or realise they are simply out of touch

It’s easy to say that but everybody is mostly in their own echo chamber. The reality is Trump won and the most Trump like party in the UK is currently topping the polls. So at what point is it not an echo chamber but a reflection of a substantial view.

 

The majority of people are not worried about Russia, they’re worried about their countries going in the wrong direction and that’s something Vance and Trump are willing to state and if others are not then I’m sure it’ll only increase those people stating that and others can either pretend everyone is Russian stooges or realise they are simply out of touch

 

Easy for them to win the polls at the moment though and I'm sure Steve posted someting that if those results were reflected, they would not have an elecorate majority. They are only making grounds in Council areas where the Tory vote collapses. Seeing as though they are hell-bent on not having an electoral pact with the Tories. Plus really quicky you will see inflation running rife in the US and of course they will lurch further to the right. I'd hope we learn from the Brexit debate as you know Reform will limit abortion and women's rights too.

 

What Trump and Vance are doing is straight out of a dictator's playbook. Most people are not engaged in world politics and do not understand soft power, so I would not suspect that, except you would find that a reason energy bills are so high at the moment is because of Russia. And by the way there is no proof that America is heading in the right direction.

It’s easy to say that but everybody is mostly in their own echo chamber. The reality is Trump won and the most Trump like party in the UK is currently topping the polls. So at what point is it not an echo chamber but a reflection of a substantial view.

 

The majority of people are not worried about Russia, they’re worried about their countries going in the wrong direction and that’s something Vance and Trump are willing to state and if others are not then I’m sure it’ll only increase those people stating that and others can either pretend everyone is Russian stooges or realise they are simply out of touch

 

Incorrect.

 

@1890718365489975452

 

That's about 50% of the country putting Russia as the biggest risk, not to mention other party supporters. Reform's lead is nowhere near a majority of the country and it is incredibly unlikely to ever be.

 

Don't appeal to this imagined majority of people who think their country is going 'in the wrong direction' or the biggest worry is 'changing of culture', it is such cowardly shit - it's so obviously code for 'don't like seeing more brown people on my streets' or 'I think the alphabet people are icky'. They're not correct and they are of limited size. But then, no matter their size, I'm not giving this dogwhistling credence.

 

The sooner it has its downfall and the Republicans' amateur callousness runs up against the reality of people not liking their cruel policies, the better.

I’m not from England but always assumed it’s is very mixed race?

I’m not from England but always assumed it’s is very mixed race?

 

82% white. This might seem to be inaccurate from adverts (and some media) which these days operate at minimum a 50/50 ratio but that's the reality and they comprise the vast majority of voters. In the USA the white population is down from 64% in 2010 to 58% in 2020 and so the USA can be said to be pretty much multi-racial now with whites as the majority group. Some of the non-white recent immigrant groups who voted Trump (and yes they did vote for him - my view is the main link here is gullibility to propaganda. I'm being kind there) may soon have other views, which may or may not be relevant, depending on whether they remain in the country or get kicked out. TBC.....

All this started by stupid people thinking they're smart and getting equal influence to people who aren't idiots.

 

Even now there's a sense that we should 'respect' idiots.

Well, I don't.

82% white. This might seem to be inaccurate from adverts (and some media) which these days operate at minimum a 50/50 ratio but that's the reality and they comprise the vast majority of voters. In the USA the white population is down from 64% in 2010 to 58% in 2020 and so the USA can be said to be pretty much multi-racial now with whites as the majority group. Some of the non-white recent immigrant groups who voted Trump (and yes they did vote for him - my view is the main link here is gullibility to propaganda. I'm being kind there) may soon have other views, which may or may not be relevant, depending on whether they remain in the country or get kicked out. TBC.....

 

I mean just look closer to home, you've got Rupert Lowe from Reform whose just promised everyone a tax cut, regenerate town centres, tax cuts to promote child, scrap interest on student loans, VAT reform.. all wonderful ideas and of course I would welcome them all, but with the catch.. how is this going to be funded? It's complete fantasy politics thinking if you find £20 down the back of a sofa and stop a few illegal immigrants you can transform a country. Unfortunately everyone is easily duped in propaganda, it's why if we had a vote to return back to the EU today I suspect it would be 55-60% in favour of rejoining.

Incorrect.

 

@1890718365489975452

 

That's about 50% of the country putting Russia as the biggest risk, not to mention other party supporters. Reform's lead is nowhere near a majority of the country and it is incredibly unlikely to ever be.

 

Don't appeal to this imagined majority of people who think their country is going 'in the wrong direction' or the biggest worry is 'changing of culture', it is such cowardly shit - it's so obviously code for 'don't like seeing more brown people on my streets' or 'I think the alphabet people are icky'. They're not correct and they are of limited size. But then, no matter their size, I'm not giving this dogwhistling credence.

 

The sooner it has its downfall and the Republicans' amateur callousness runs up against the reality of people not liking their cruel policies, the better.

 

That’s a few times I’ve seen that mentioned here and really that’s code for we want to denigrate others and feel morally superior when ultimately we’re talking irrational illogical points. That’s all that is. It’s also pretty absurd to label so many people these foul terms because of a failure to comprehend issues properly.

 

If you want to do polls we can look at polls that are very supportive of what Vance was saying with regards to immigration.

 

@1887186598590079171

 

It’s not correct or wise or smart to dumb a subject like immigration down to “ these fascists don’t like brown people” you saw with Trump’s victory that large amounts of Hispanics and Arabs voted for him and a record number of black people too which is not easy to achieve with the history in the US. So ultimately this kind of mentally is factually against evidence. I don’t know how they worded that question but I’ve never spoken to hardly anyone who gives a damn about Russia.

 

The majority of people voted for Trump it’s a fact. He won the popular vote. How is that an imagined majority? Given some of the viewpoints I’ve seen basically Tories are fascists and reform are fascists right? So combine their polls and you basically have 50% of the country. It’s very futile to try to dismiss that. Your method is to say ignore these people I don’t like them they’re racist and ignorant is that not a fearful view? Entertaining these arguments properly is entertaining that your worldview is wrong maybe you don’t want to do that, from brexit to however long the Tories were in charge ultimately the majority of people continually voted for less immigration but got more, so what kind of democracy is that?

 

The BBC did a thing on the hospital right next to me and it’s no surprise it’s a catastrophe https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj026gz751zo.amp there are three waiting rooms all filled to the max. It’s leading to deaths and just every bodies care is down. I needed codeine a few months ago and after 4 hours I had to just leave everything is a snail’s pace.

 

The supply cannot meet demand so rents go up for smaller and smaller properties and worse living conditions. Wages cannot meet inflation and a lot of people cannot find good jobs hence the benefit system is overloaded. There are countries with huge poverty and two billion people like china and India you think you can have some utopian open door policy and standards will stay the same? Cultures will remain? The crazy thing with this rebuttal is that it’s no different anywhere. Nigeria has had huge immigration protests, South American countries also but wherever. This is a normality amongst human civilisation so to ignore and have such an uncharitable view of Europeans or UK or reform is not a moral stance at all.

 

Then Vance basically echoed a reality. Each day is a new attack. He mentioned the one in Germany but since then was another in Austria https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjw4jj0p5jdo it’s now a norm and it’s a norm due to suicidal policies by people motivated not by logic or facts. Are we telling that 14 yr old boy or his family that really Russia is the threat to him. It’s senseless. You cannot believe taking incredibly large amounts per year of usually exclusively males 17-45 in large numbers from some places were women are third class citizens and expecting everything to work out. It’s been a proven disaster and it’s only ideology or identity blinded people from stating the obvious.

 

There are trillions of examples but last week I saw a guy who was a proven rapist in Bulgaria allowed to come to the UK and of course he ended up raping women here too. https://www.warringtonguardian.co.uk/news/2...-rape-bulgaria/

 

It’s not a moral position to put people in danger because of some outdated ideology. Trump was already in charge and he won 8 years later so how did those ‘cruel policies’ turn people off? The Tories were in charge for like 100 years. This is not logical what you’re saying.

 

People want safety, community, prosperity blah blah blah. Nobody is getting that. Mass knife attacks, cars and trucks running over numerous people has become normalised. If that je suis Charlie thing happened today it’d be out of the news cycle tomorrow back when it happened it was the biggest thing in the world. This is the wrong direction clearly. I’m not sure recreating the Cold War is the solution. Hence why that speech went down so well.

 

 

 

Hitler won the popular vote. Just because someone wins doesn’t mean it’s something that needs to be accepted. What a dumb argument.

 

Attacks, violence, etc. will not disappear if you introduce harsher migration laws. But yeah keep burying your head in the sand and blame brown people.

Liam, while I respect your opinion, the Russia part is misguided. They are the biggest threat to us and I can see why Europe is concerned. Within the last year iirc they have been caught THREE times within British territory in their submarines. That is worrying. What are they mapping, what are they doing? You'll never hear the likes of Reform shouting up about this as their backers are in Russian pockets. It's laughable that people think the Kremlin will not try something else within the next 10 years once they've used the peace time to rebuild.

 

You've taken the bait that all our problems are to blame on immigration when they're not. Even in the US they are not. Hospitals aren't failing because of illegal immigrants, they're failing because an ageing population and we have a total imbalance of working people to pay for the system vs what is taken out of the system. Illegal immigration is certainly an issue, but it's a lazy debate to make. People voted for Brexit cos of immigration.

Trump won just under 50% of the popular vote, i.e. a long way short of a majority of the voting-age population.

Liam, it's also incredibly disingenuous to argue as if there aren't people who think these things as a major part of such a movement, we've seen it with the Charlottesville march in 2017, with Jan 6, with the Madison Square Garden rally in last year's election. For myself, I could not in good conscience be a part of a political project that allows such people in. Even for those who aren't literally white, the reason they are against immigration is often fear of an 'other' that they are not familiar with. Some people have economic concerns on their mind (some of which is pulling up the ladder), but well, it's a good thing that those people aren't (until now in America) making policy.

 

Generally the strong right-wing base seems to be between 10-20% of a population - when political movements based in these win an election, they have often borrowed votes from a large number of apoliticals who have those above economic concerns. So no, I'm not calling everyone who currently says they will vote Conservatives and Reform a fascist, just a decent proportion of them (besides, the real bad guys are not the voters, its the politicians who enable and stoke their fears), and those that aren't may find their way back to Labour should the economy improve, and their counterparts in America may well return to the Democrat fold after a few years of Trump.

 

The reason successive governments haven't addressed the so-called immigration issue is because it's pretty much universally not good policy to have lower immigration. It leads to a contracting economy, particularly in an educated one with a low birth rate. Hence the UK governments will look tough on immigration, but won't realistically bring it down too much. The 'Boriswave' was pretty egregious though and that's why Labour here are doing more than they otherwise might to curb it - though as an astute chap on QT said last week, they need to be looking for visa overstayers etc as those are the real illegal immigrants, not desperate asylum seekers fleeing persecution the only way that is left open to them in their situation. The public doesn't think in terms of policy, and no I'm not saying they're too stupid to understand, but they tend to be pretty short-termist as a whole and you can't follow public opinion fully on things like immigration.

 

Vance's speech has been pretty widely derided, I mean, sure there's those of his base around Europe who loved it, because it's red meat for them, but it's not a good idea when Russia is a more existential threat.

 

(each of those examples of crime I guarantee you is there because it's a newsworthy, unusual thing, not a sign of a trend - for the most part, Europe is a very safe continent; compared to America - this is a good attitude to have to tabloid news, they will publish things to scare you so you keep engaging with their content, all they publish is the exception, not the norm).

I can’t get passed that you waited at A&E for four hours for Codeine when CoCodamol is literally sold OTC from a Pharmacy

 

No wonder the NHS is a state when people continually overburden it with problems that are better solved by other branches of the system

Liam, it's also incredibly disingenuous to argue as if there aren't people who think these things as a major part of such a movement, we've seen it with the Charlottesville march in 2017, with Jan 6, with the Madison Square Garden rally in last year's election. For myself, I could not in good conscience be a part of a political project that allows such people in. Even for those who aren't literally white, the reason they are against immigration is often fear of an 'other' that they are not familiar with. Some people have economic concerns on their mind (some of which is pulling up the ladder), but well, it's a good thing that those people aren't (until now in America) making policy.

 

Generally the strong right-wing base seems to be between 10-20% of a population - when political movements based in these win an election, they have often borrowed votes from a large number of apoliticals who have those above economic concerns. So no, I'm not calling everyone who currently says they will vote Conservatives and Reform a fascist, just a decent proportion of them (besides, the real bad guys are not the voters, its the politicians who enable and stoke their fears), and those that aren't may find their way back to Labour should the economy improve, and their counterparts in America may well return to the Democrat fold after a few years of Trump.

 

The reason successive governments haven't addressed the so-called immigration issue is because it's pretty much universally not good policy to have lower immigration. It leads to a contracting economy, particularly in an educated one with a low birth rate. Hence the UK governments will look tough on immigration, but won't realistically bring it down too much. The 'Boriswave' was pretty egregious though and that's why Labour here are doing more than they otherwise might to curb it - though as an astute chap on QT said last week, they need to be looking for visa overstayers etc as those are the real illegal immigrants, not desperate asylum seekers fleeing persecution the only way that is left open to them in their situation. The public doesn't think in terms of policy, and no I'm not saying they're too stupid to understand, but they tend to be pretty short-termist as a whole and you can't follow public opinion fully on things like immigration.

 

Vance's speech has been pretty widely derided, I mean, sure there's those of his base around Europe who loved it, because it's red meat for them, but it's not a good idea when Russia is a more existential threat.

 

(each of those examples of crime I guarantee you is there because it's a newsworthy, unusual thing, not a sign of a trend - for the most part, Europe is a very safe continent; compared to America - this is a good attitude to have to tabloid news, they will publish things to scare you so you keep engaging with their content, all they publish is the exception, not the norm).

 

PAA HAAA REAAAACHHHHH!!!!!

 

PREAAACHHHH!!!!

 

Also, Liam forgets that inmigration is higher atm because of Brexshit!! The low birth rate necessitates immigration. Without the EU and freefom of movement, the government has been left with no choice but to turn a blind eye to visa overstayers and to be less strict with immigration, whilst cosplaying that that they are hard on it.

 

Liam, it's also incredibly disingenuous to argue as if there aren't people who think these things as a major part of such a movement, we've seen it with the Charlottesville march in 2017, with Jan 6, with the Madison Square Garden rally in last year's election. For myself, I could not in good conscience be a part of a political project that allows such people in. Even for those who aren't literally white, the reason they are against immigration is often fear of an 'other' that they are not familiar with. Some people have economic concerns on their mind (some of which is pulling up the ladder), but well, it's a good thing that those people aren't (until now in America) making policy.

 

Generally the strong right-wing base seems to be between 10-20% of a population - when political movements based in these win an election, they have often borrowed votes from a large number of apoliticals who have those above economic concerns. So no, I'm not calling everyone who currently says they will vote Conservatives and Reform a fascist, just a decent proportion of them (besides, the real bad guys are not the voters, its the politicians who enable and stoke their fears), and those that aren't may find their way back to Labour should the economy improve, and their counterparts in America may well return to the Democrat fold after a few years of Trump.

 

The reason successive governments haven't addressed the so-called immigration issue is because it's pretty much universally not good policy to have lower immigration. It leads to a contracting economy, particularly in an educated one with a low birth rate. Hence the UK governments will look tough on immigration, but won't realistically bring it down too much. The 'Boriswave' was pretty egregious though and that's why Labour here are doing more than they otherwise might to curb it - though as an astute chap on QT said last week, they need to be looking for visa overstayers etc as those are the real illegal immigrants, not desperate asylum seekers fleeing persecution the only way that is left open to them in their situation. The public doesn't think in terms of policy, and no I'm not saying they're too stupid to understand, but they tend to be pretty short-termist as a whole and you can't follow public opinion fully on things like immigration.

 

Vance's speech has been pretty widely derided, I mean, sure there's those of his base around Europe who loved it, because it's red meat for them, but it's not a good idea when Russia is a more existential threat.

 

(each of those examples of crime I guarantee you is there because it's a newsworthy, unusual thing, not a sign of a trend - for the most part, Europe is a very safe continent; compared to America - this is a good attitude to have to tabloid news, they will publish things to scare you so you keep engaging with their content, all they publish is the exception, not the norm).

 

I wished that it was possible to like/upvote posts on this forum. Agreed with everything you've said here, what's happening in America is literally the Tyranny of the Minority. To circle back to the UK and complain about the ongoing issues of the NHS and then to completely ignore the chronic shortages in staff is either disingenuous as Iz states or obstinate ignorance and a lack of critical thinking. There is a chronic shortage in part created by a lack of funding, but also Brexit and the need to rely upon immigration due to a) falling birth rates (now down to 1.44), consequently an aging population and b) lack of sufficient training, which was also exacerbated by the Cameron/Osborne era axing of student grants and bursaries for nurses - highlighted by Corbyn back in 2016.

 

The polling of UKIP/Reform at national elections has historically topped out around 14-15 % (and that's of those that do vote), that is not anywhere near a majority - this group may be quite vocal but they in no way represent the majority of opinion in this country, nor do they anywhere else.

 

The opinion about wages/affordability has little to do with immigration and more to do with the profit-at-any-cost obessed practices of the private sector. Houses are far too expensive and the Government should be doing more to force land bank private developers to build or release their land to other developers. Personally I'd bring in a land value tax and use it to replace most of business rates and council tax.

I wished that it was possible to like/upvote posts on this forum. Agreed with everything you've said here, what's happening in America is literally the Tyranny of the Minority. To circle back to the UK and complain about the ongoing issues of the NHS and then to completely ignore the chronic shortages in staff is either disingenuous as Iz states or obstinate ignorance and a lack of critical thinking. There is a chronic shortage in part created by a lack of funding, but also Brexit and the need to rely upon immigration due to a) falling birth rates (now down to 1.44), consequently an aging population and b) lack of sufficient training, which was also exacerbated by the Cameron/Osborne era axing of student grants and bursaries for nurses - highlighted by Corbyn back in 2016.

 

The polling of UKIP/Reform at national elections has historically topped out around 14-15 % (and that's of those that do vote), that is not anywhere near a majority - this group may be quite vocal but they in no way represent the majority of opinion in this country, nor do they anywhere else.

 

The opinion about wages/affordability has little to do with immigration and more to do with the profit-at-any-cost obessed practices of the private sector. Houses are far too expensive and the Government should be doing more to force land bank private developers to build or release their land to other developers. Personally I'd bring in a land value tax and use it to replace most of business rates and council tax.

 

Perhaps mine is a view too simplistic but I think a lot of the problems we're seeing would be solved by large building of social housing (not "affordable" housing). It would massively reduce the cost of living for a lot of people as well as give people a permanent residence (even if renting).

 

I think why so many people have an issue with immigration is due to the fact a lot of the reasons why we need such high levels of immigration are solveable, but the government haven't tried solving those first (in part due to 14 years of conservative government + Brexit).

 

Hopefully we'll see the rhetoric around immigration quell somewhat in the coming years as Labour start fixing a lot of the issues from the last 10-15 years and move us towards re-joining the EU or single market again.

 

I will say that it is naive to think such high levels of immigration don't have negative impacts though, particularly on the likes of housing and infrastructure given that subsequent governments haven't been able to build enough housing and infrastructure for the current resident population (let alone for the high levels of net immigration we've been seeing over the last 5+ years). Although part of that is due to decisions from many moons ago (Right to buy, privitisation of water/electric etc Still ridiculous water companies get away with so much).

 

Mid-late century is going to be quite interesting as whilst the UK/western world can supplement the population via immigration currently, a lot of countries those immigrants come from will become a lot more developed and it's likely immigration will slow down quite massively. You only have to look at the likes of Poland who are likely to overtake the UK's GDP per capita in the coming 15-20 years.

Edited February 16Feb 16 by Envoirment

My point, which some other posts have hinted at but not said outright, but which I'm not intimidated to say outright, is that polls that show X% of people support something don't actually mean anything if the people that support it are stupid, because they don't actually have an informed opinion on the topic.

 

You can take a stupid person and just tell them what to think or how to vote and they will. You don't need to justify it to them or even ask them to justify it before they do it.

 

And in my opinion, that's a problem.

 

Anyone making any decision should do so with at least a baseline understanding of what that decision will mean and what the impact will be on themself if not also on the people immediately around them and their community. This is the justification given to witholding the vote from teenagers and children; but it appears that adults who might actually have a lower grasp on reality than some teenagers or children are apparently fair game.

Most people don't search for facts and data. I was in the USA at election time and most information on the old media was in the form of short adverts, and now people are bombarded with online propaganda and huge media outlets owned by billionaires. Large swathes of the human race suffer from self-delusion: as in, they have pre-existing beliefs and twist everything to support their own personal delusions, from flat-earthers and aliens to religion. None of these things have any logic or science or facts to them but people cling to them. Anti-vaccers like Kennedy is another symptom of this. I am happy for anybody to believe anything they want to - AS LONG IT DOESN'T HARM SOMEONE ELSE. At which point I jump off. old diseases from my childhood are now cropping in the USA so anti-vaccing is now causing harm so it needs to be called out for what it is. If people choose not to vaccine and die that's their own choice, but once kids start dying because measles and TB are spreading they lose that right in my opinion.

 

Meanwhile, Musk just literally fired crucial Nuclear weapon operators because the kids he hired had no idea what these people do - keep the nuclear weapons safe! - and blocked their accounts instantly. Oops. Once they realised they had no way of contacting these experts they had to put out a request for them to get back in touch. Me, I would refuse to come back without a tripling in wage or say f*** Off I have transferable skills, I will transfer them elsewhere, as any guarantees they offer about job security have been proven to be worthless. They have ignored due process and the law.

 

Reap what you sow if you hire people who dont know anything about shit. See previous comments from me on external hirings in local government, paying people more than the staff who end up doing their job for them so they can collate bollocks to sell bollocks to provide the outcome bollocks to idiots without skills or knowledge who get elected by people who have no idea what they or anyone else does.

 

You might say I'm cynical, but that is the only sane way to approach humanity, baseless optimists are dangerous to the rest of us.