I've wanted to start this topic for a little while and I do think that now, when there's no active contest about and hopefully no feelings to be hurt, is probably the best time.

Obviously we had the discussion about copperplate 2 contests ago, and several people will be aware (as I found out during the listenthrough and made everyone who attends those aware), that Lunes from last contest was also a completely AI-generated artist.

AI is absolutely a huge threat to contests like these, we're all trying to find good new artists and songs that aren't known by a majority of people, even those likely to go out searching for such music. Obviously there are still real musicians putting out new stuff, but there is also a deluge of completely AI-generated songs created by people who put in no more effort than a description into Suno, and I hate it, particularly as it hits so many of my formerly loved niches really badly.

Really, so many of my potential searches have come up against AI lately that now if I find one of the unknown/anonymous artists I used to love sending I am having to convince myself that they are a real person. That's partly why I wanted to start this topic, I'm finding this a real problem.

I'll give you some examples, all songs I've found when doing normal searching for songs in the last few months, ranging from tens or even hundreds of thousands of views. Unfortunately for all of these I cannot prove they are fully made using AI, but while vetting them I came across some online discussions talking about the possibility and saw enough red flags to say that they are AI generated at least in part, which is enough to taint it for me:

> A Japanese rock song with Latin chants, would be awesome if it was a real thing, but the ""creator"" said in the Youtube comments that they used AI to assist them.

> A whole channel supposedly about promoting unknown singers with good production, but just too perfect songs, I found a reddit thread with a poster claiming to be a representative of the channel, claiming their method was to take amateur singers and 'enhance' their voices, as well as alleged social media accounts of the singers.

> A channel clearly maintained by a real individual and internet streamer, putting out songs claiming to be their own, but with AI-generated art, I later found a blog post from the creator talking about the use of AI in their work, claiming that it was just a productivity tool to be used alongside other recording and drawing tools and that real effort had gone into their art

> An artist that was entered to BJSC over 3 years ago, so pre-AI, but has now put out an AI-generated album and cover art, re-using their original sound to create soulless copies - and this one I only noticed because I wondered who the credited singer was and the artist was being evasive about naming them when they had no problems naming featured artists before. I was really close to entering a song from this one before I noticed btw, because their activity as an artist pre-AI made them less suspect, or so I thought.

Doubtless many of you have come across similar. I haven't named any of those above as I don't think there's much to be gained by discussing whether a few specific songs are AI or not, nor do I wish to promote these people, but I can do it if anyone's really curious. It's more to give you a sense of the types of AI-generated songs you may come across, and the nuances that come with them; perhaps some participants wouldn't have a problem with some of the more borderline cases. But if anyone has any other interesting types to share, please do because I want to keep my senses attuned to spot these.

I think the mods are planning to come up with a judgement on AI before it really gets ahead of the contest, but have other people been finding this many AI songs littering up normal discovery routes? How do you feel about them in the contest, in any form?

in case it wasn't clear, in lieu of any judgement, I am vetting my potential entries closely to ensure I don't send AI, and am disqualifying all such entries from my points.

i have come across this website which is cataloguing all the confirmed AI artists: https://souloverai.com/

that being said i 100% support an ai ban because of its harm to real humans, especially small independent artists. unfortunately, spotify has recently included some ai songs in their nmf playlists and personal curated playlists like release radar and discovery weekly, making it harder to detect ai usage.

the only ethical way i see with using "ai" in song creation is if it is used in what the scientific community is using, a.k.a. some sort of machine learning technique to do better mixing like removing noise and frequency clashes (that might be impossible to do manually) - nothing that is done to undermine the creativity and effort of songwriters and producers etc.

That is an excellent resource uhsting, thank you for sharing, I'll be adding that as something to check and perhaps even contributing to it.

I'm also anti AI when it comes to songs being entered here, I just feel like it's against the spirit of what BJSC stands for, it encourages people to look for a "one off hit" that caters to certain niches a lot of BJSC participants favour and it's not really giving artists a chance of discovery. Half the fun of BJSC is loving a song and then taking a deep dive into that artists back catalogue for more gems, I think they should be vetoed but if not then I won't be likely to point the song knowing it's AI.

I don’t think I’d know if a song was made using AI or not. I wouldn’t have guessed the two that have been sent recently tbh. These days lots of songs just have an online faceless presence to me if I discover them on blogs etc.

Do people find it easy to research?

I’m not against them being a veto if it’s feasible to establish. It’s probably better off being vetoed than feeling awkward because you’ve accidentally sent something people object to

I do find the scourge of AI music quite troubling for numerous reasons but I think realistically trying to implement a ban on AI entries isn't really feasible - the two that we know of from the last two contests both got through the research process undetected (I could try to implement more background checks but as I'm sure you all know it's sometimes a struggle to get research done in a timely manner as it is without having to worry about running another check on 50+ artists per month xx) and that's despite the last one being, in retrospect, quite obvious, and my full expectation that it's only going to get harder over time to identify AI artists. I would just encourage people to try and be mindful and look out for some red flags and idk maybe if I happen to notice AI entries in research in future months I might pop a quick PM to check if the person behind it really wants to go ahead with sending it x (I also don't want to invalidate if there are people who genuinely don't have an issue with AI music, although I am hoping we won't ever have a major problem of people intentionally sending AI artists)

Most AI music is not exactly forthcoming about being AI and trying to come up with some criteria to enforce a ban runs the risk of catching false positives of artists who just happen to not have major social media presence etc.

i would certainly want to see some of veto process added to it because ngl i would find it really disheartening if people start intentionally sending obvious genAI songs or made entirely from suno/udio etc. because it's not explicitly banned in the contest

yes these songs will likely tank in the real event but i wouldn't want to give them exposure at all in listenthroughs and contests

10 minutes ago, dandy* said:

I don’t think I’d know if a song was made using AI or not. I wouldn’t have guessed the two that have been sent recently tbh. These days lots of songs just have an online faceless presence to me if I discover them on blogs etc.

Do people find it easy to research?

I’m not against them being a veto if it’s feasible to establish. It’s probably better off being vetoed than feeling awkward because you’ve accidentally sent something people object to

This is it, right, I used to love finding faceless artists who'd let their musical talent speak for themselves and sending them in, they're still out there probably, but I have to do vetting now, I can't trust that that talent is real.

Mostly what I've done is look for reddit threads or comments on review sites that confirm to me if the artist is real - which I start doing if anything about the artist's output or the song's quality, its description is suspicious. Sadly, popular subgenres (that I tend to like!) with only a few notable artists in them like synthwave, electro-swing or city pop are prime territory for it. You might be able to tell from uncanny valley vocals or production but I've learnt to never be too complacent with 'AI tells' because the damn chameleon tech always changes.

If there is an awareness to check, hopefully people will do that.

I'm wholly against the use of AI in the creative process and would never send a song which I had known to have been created using it.

The problem is that anything which diminishes from this being a contest purely based on musical appreciation is likely to erode my own enjoyment of it. Ideally I'd want the music to do the talking, and for what it's worth, I don't think the copperplate or LUNES songs would have made my votes whether I knew about their use of AI or not, as I just felt there was something lacking in both songs. However I can't deny that once I knew about the use of AI in those songs (and both were in the opposite semis to mine), this put me off from even considering them for votes in the final.

I've put more than 400 songs in my personal chart this past year, and the same in each of the previous two years, the majority of which are one per artist, so likely more than 1,000 artists. I simply don't have time to vet all these artists to know whether there's a reason I shouldn't be endorsing any of them. Obviously only a select percentage of these have made their way into my song contest entries, and I do to try to find some background on those artists to be happy about sending them, however it's sparse in many cases and in reality a certain amount of good faith is required.

I certainly don't think our community will have a lasting problem with people intentionally sending AI generated songs, and if anyone does, I think they will quickly realise that this is not the forum for them. The more pressing issue, I think, is how to handle when it has been found out that someone's entry (without their knowing) has been made using AI, especially once the contest has started. From the experience of the last couple of contests, I think it's best to be upfront about it once it's confirmed, but I don't think it helps to attach blame to the sender - they'll just take the hit from people who don't want to vote for a known AI entry, and I think that's fine, it's only a game and there's always another contest soon enough, these things will happen and people will move on from them.

I know this isn't directly the purpose of this discussion, but I want to ask for clarity in here about the use of AI in visual presentations. Because for all I've seen it's a great to see colourful concepts and beautiful aesthetics in some contests that are AI generated. Never once has it bothered me that, but then I've not hosted anything in BJSC before (nor would I be allowed to anyway, but that's besides the point), but I did just create a new confirmations thread elsewhere on BuzzJack using a banner made by ChatGPT and I was wondering where mods stood on such usage for presenting themes?

It's for use in the 20th Century forum contest which @King Rollo asked me to host recently in place of others who weren't able to at this time.

It looks wonderful, I think it's fine to use it for banners.

I personally find using AI graphics a bit tacky as well but it's probably the most innocuous use of AI that's crept into the song contests x

The way that post is so evidently promotion for that contest but framed in a way that it fits tenuously into this discussion is quite creative, I'll give you that Wardy 😂

I've used some AI art and even though I don't like the use of it in general, especially in people just needlessly and carelessly using it on Instagram to pretend they're in front of fireworks for New Year or something, there is some level of creativity to it that I think can enhance a contest. I can't pretend I didn't LOVE Addy's airline theme and I know his graphics relied HEAVILY on AI but it did help to aid his vision and it was clear that he'd still put a lot of thought and effort into it so I didn't mind personally.

AI graphics don't bother me although I didn't use them for BJSC 180, it would have made life easier though. AI art does still have this very ubiquitous distinct art style that stands out as being overused and a bit wishy washy, not sure if the more sophisticated it gets the harder it will be to tell it apart.

AI in song contests I am not as fully against as some but don't think 100% AI generated songs should be in a mainline BJSC contest. If there is still human input in there like with Headache then that is different to me, and I'd take it on a case by case basis, although I'd rather hear an AI vocal on a properly produced song like that than I would hear a human vocal singing on an AI made backing track.

AI songs that somebody else has fully 'generated' competing as part of a supposedly level playing field with artists who have made music will always feel a bit iffy to many but I can't see it becoming a massive trend in BJSC. Despite us having two on the trot, it's clear how many people are against them, and they didn't do well in the end anyway.

It seems to me that LUNES suffered in the final compared to its semi result when some people realised part way through the contest that it was AI generated and therefore dropped it from their votes (I can't remember specifics but at least one semi 12 dropped to zero), and I think AI songs will always be 'outed' at some point during the contest, but at the same time, no blame lies with the countries that unwittingly sent them without realising. I have been hoodwinked by AI on at least three occasions in the last 12 months while checking new music playlists, it's getting harder and harder to spot, especially as Spotify seem to be mixing AI generated stuff into Discover Weekly, which I regularly use, which isn't good form from them really.

37 minutes ago, awardinary said:

I know this isn't directly the purpose of this discussion, but I want to ask for clarity in here about the use of AI in visual presentations. Because for all I've seen it's a great to see colourful concepts and beautiful aesthetics in some contests that are AI generated. Never once has it bothered me that, but then I've not hosted anything in BJSC before (nor would I be allowed to anyway, but that's besides the point), but I did just create a new confirmations thread elsewhere on BuzzJack using a banner made by ChatGPT and I was wondering where mods stood on such usage for presenting themes?

Here's the one I generated a short time ago that I used;

It's for use in the 20th Century forum contest which @King Rollo asked me to host recently in place of others who weren't able to at this time.

AI already stole the em-dash from me so we have beef



I just want to preface this by saying that art is inherently subjective, and this is not a comment on your presentation 🖤

I personally dislike all forms of AI in the creative process. I'm a creative working in a creative industry, and hate seeing slop become more mainstream. I know people have generated banners and other things on here in the past, which I don't judge anyone for, it has become so normalised... but I do find it icky. In my head, Addy was locked in a basement with just Photoshop and Unsplash images of airlines for a week, and I appreciated the concept. I am not completely against AI as a small tool or an assist, but that is it.

I have made everything on here myself, questionable taste/quality sometimes, but it's mine and didn't require the power of a server running for hours to make. I'll just have to soften my views on it, especially as it's only going to get harder to avoid or even notice over time

AI-generated songs are just insane to me and essentially exist, again, by stealing pre-existing art and work most of the time. I would purposefully not want to vote for it, which seems unfair to the person who submitted it and contradicts the purpose of BJSC

I'm less bothered by AI in graphics - although that's specifically with regard to people using them to create banners for contests etc, I absolutely despise the rise of them being used as fake images on social media etc and I feel that's heading down a really dark path if we're not careful - but that's a different matter. I've never actually used them myself for anything on here but I did think that Calum used them well in his Pop Factor contest last year for example - and I also can appreciate that for some people creating graphics is quite daunting and outside of their natural skillset so it can be helpful for them.

1 minute ago, dandy* said:

I'm less bothered by AI in graphics - although that's specifically with regard to people using them to create banners for contests etc, I absolutely despise the rise of them being used as fake images on social media etc and I feel that's heading down a really dark path if we're not careful - but that's a different matter. I've never actually used them myself for anything on here but I did think that Calum used them well in his Pop Factor contest last year for example - and I also can appreciate that for some people creating graphics is quite daunting and outside of their natural skillset so it can be helpful for them.

I do want to add that my own personal thoughts on AI are mostly separate. We all have lives, so I'm not expecting someone to learn how to use Adobe to host an online song contest once

Although spreadsheets are daunting to me and I still did them and then lowkey had a breakdown

Yeah, I personally would not choose to use AI art if I were hosting, even though I have limited artistic skills, I want anything creative I do on here to reflect me and my interests (hence I may appropriate an image from an anime or something, but I'd rather put together something bad in Paint without any existing images than tell a computer to create an image, particularly as I nearly always find the images it creates to hit the uncanny valley in some way), but I have no problem if some hosts want to use it as an aid for something inconsequential like graphics, I'm not going to get precious over what others do in that sense.

I guess that for songs there's some closeness to varying 'artificial' aspects of songs like autotune, vocaloid programmes, electronic beats and such-like that then spills into a spectrum of AI-assisted and created elements, so there is some nuance, but I can normally make a decent judgement call after learning the background of a song on whether there is enough real, human, creative and original energy in it - which is probably what I'll have to do going forward, and if I find out that there is any LLM involvement, it likely will taint it for me except in really really light cases.

We need to let me win again already so I can bring back my rudimentary MS Paint skills and unleash some new countryballs on you all.

AI could nevah

Just now, Brer said:

We need to let me win again already so I can bring back my rudimentary MS Paint skills and unleash some new countryballs on you all.

I want to also also also add that being exposed to Oslol in the BJSC lore thread was probably the most inspiring art I have seen on here

AI cannot make these x