Have any of you burned your eyes already by looking at the Independence prospectus that glorifies all of the things that will benefit Scotland if it does decide to go independent, yet does not objectively state any disadvantages, and what do you make of it?

 

I've not read all of it myself yet, but I've been looking at the Culture, Communications and Digital chapter, and it's full of contradictions. They say that if SBS goes ahead working with the BBC, they'll aim to produce more Scottish based television programmes because the public believe there is not enough of them, but what they seem not to be including in this beautifully biased prospectus is that various programmes from the BBC are becoming BBC Scotland productions - you only need to look at Waterloo Road which recently just changed transported itself from Rochdale to Greenock - now offering many employment opportunities in the creative industries for young people and established Scottish actors. Surely this is not a valid reason for trying to further the ideology of Scottish Independence? It's just an excuse to fill paper and try to persuade people to vote 'yes'. If BBC Scotland actually got their act together and ensured that license payers in Scotland were satisfied with the productions they are being graced with (so that there was a wider variety of both Scottish and English productions), then maybe there would be no need for this at all.

 

#rantover

Have any of you burned your eyes already by looking at the Independence prospectus that glorifies all of the things that will benefit Scotland if it does decide to go independent, yet does not objectively state any disadvantages, and what do you make of it?

 

I've not read all of it myself yet, but I've been looking at the Culture, Communications and Digital chapter, and it's full of contradictions. They say that if SBS goes ahead working with the BBC, they'll aim to produce more Scottish based television programmes because the public believe there is not enough of them, but what they seem not to be including in this beautifully biased prospectus is that various programmes from the BBC are becoming BBC Scotland productions - you only need to look at Waterloo Road which recently just changed transported itself from Rochdale to Greenock - now offering many employment opportunities in the creative industries for young people and established Scottish actors. Surely this is not a valid reason for trying to further the ideology of Scottish Independence? It's just an excuse to fill paper and try to persuade people to vote 'yes'. If BBC Scotland actually got their act together and ensured that license payers in Scotland were satisfied with the productions they are being graced with (so that there was a wider variety of both Scottish and English productions), then maybe there would be no need for this at all.

 

#rantover

Not read it all yet? But it's only 600+ pages :lol:

 

White Papers - as this is - are often very biased as they are trying to make a case for something so it's nothing new for the Scottish government to do it. I shall read more about it in the paper tomorrow (and possibly some of the White Paper itself) before commenting.

0/10 would not bang

I'm starting to wonder if independence might actually happen. All the polls only have "No" with about a 10% lead at most (with that lead cancelled out by the number of people still undecided)... that's not secure at all.

Have any of you burned your eyes already by looking at the Independence prospectus that glorifies all of the things that will benefit Scotland if it does decide to go independent, yet does not objectively state any disadvantages, and what do you make of it?

 

I've not read all of it myself yet, but I've been looking at the Culture, Communications and Digital chapter, and it's full of contradictions. They say that if SBS goes ahead working with the BBC, they'll aim to produce more Scottish based television programmes because the public believe there is not enough of them, but what they seem not to be including in this beautifully biased prospectus is that various programmes from the BBC are becoming BBC Scotland productions - you only need to look at Waterloo Road which recently just changed transported itself from Rochdale to Greenock - now offering many employment opportunities in the creative industries for young people and established Scottish actors. Surely this is not a valid reason for trying to further the ideology of Scottish Independence? It's just an excuse to fill paper and try to persuade people to vote 'yes'. If BBC Scotland actually got their act together and ensured that license payers in Scotland were satisfied with the productions they are being graced with (so that there was a wider variety of both Scottish and English productions), then maybe there would be no need for this at all.

 

#rantover

I'm not sure how the BBC moving production of one programme to Scotland really nullifies how Scottish people aren't satisfied with how much Scottish programming there is. The point is that many nationalists believe the best way to get Scotland's interests catered for is with complete autonomy and that persuading BBC Scotland/the BBC to 'get its act together' wouldn't be as effective or as easy as it depends on the co-operation of three other nations. Or at least that's the crux of it. It's the same story across the board.

 

I'm starting to wonder if independence might actually happen. All the polls only have "No" with about a 10% lead at most (with that lead cancelled out by the number of people still undecided)... that's not secure at all.

It's not going to happen.

 

Scottish people might feel 'Scottish then British' more so than the other way round, or how English people are 'British then English', but at the end of the day there's still the sentiment to preserve the union despite some ideological differences or limited differences in identity. The No campaign is f***ing terrible but it doesn't really need to be that great - its lead is a lot more than just 10%. Contrary to the unrelenting optimism of Yes, the vast majority of the 'Don't Knows' will vote for option that rocks the boat the least, which will be preserving the union. Even if there's last-minute momentum, I'm sure it'll come crashing down Lib Dem 2010-style.

 

The fact there are no Scottish panellists there is actually quite disgusting. "Oh, we can't actually discuss this properly with Scottish people and actually try and debate based around the points they make either for or against independence, so instead we'll just sit here and slag Scotland off for all it's worth, slag Alex Salmond off as much as we can, and claim that England is the only other affected country by this." (funny thing is he actually says the UK before going on to correct himself and say 'England'. Ignorant fool.

 

Katie Hopkins and Richard (can't even think of his surname) are just vile. :drama: They sit there and say that Scotland have an underlying problem with English people and that when English people go to Scotland they are treated unfairly (I doubt much research was done there, apart from delving into Ronni Ancona's history just for the sake of raising a petty point)... And they wonder why...?

What did you expect from Channel 5 though Calum? Though don't slag off the wonderful Richard Madeley. :( Katie Hopkins is fine, I really can't stand her.

 

I haven't read though the prospectus and have only gleamed the most important points from the media, but it seems like they still haven't addressed the most fundamental question:

 

* If Scotland becomes independent will they have to seek to apply to join the EU and therefore adopt the Euro as their currency? (Mariano Rajoy says this is a yes).

Question Time tonight is from Scotland and has an all Scottish panel.

 

The White Paper seems to have rather a lot of material which is effectively a draft of the SNP's first post-independence manifesto (if they win the vote).

 

Some people are now supporting the suggestion I made several months ago, i.e. Salmond will announce that, if there is a Yes vote, there will then be a further referendum after the detailed negotiations. That may win over some votes from the undecided camp.

 

Boris Johnson may have won the Yes side a few votes yesterday by saying that Thatcher would have "comfortably seen off Salmond".

If Scotland does leave, surely the rest of the UK would have to have a referendum on whether they should be allowed to keep the pound?

If Scotland does leave, surely the rest of the UK would have to have a referendum on whether they should be allowed to keep the pound?

 

Well you'd think that the British government would have some say, but apparently Salmond has already promised that Scotland will be keeping the pound - that is before you consider the fact that they'd be forced to join the Euro if they reapplied to join the EU (and were successful).

Mainly from a cartographer's point of view (and a vexillologist's given the flag without St Andrew would be ugly as hell), surely a referendum on Northern Irish independence would have to come in the next few years with a Yes vote.

Mainly from a cartographer's point of view (and a vexillologist's given the flag without St Andrew would be ugly as hell), surely a referendum on Northern Irish independence would have to come in the next few years with a Yes vote.

 

I very much doubt it. Removing a flag from a building was enough for Belfast to be plunged into mayhem for weeks. Can you imagine what it would be like if even the prospect of a referendum came up?

 

Interestingly a few years ago Sinn Fein suggested that there might be a referendum in 2016 on Irish unity, that year being exactly 100 years after the Easter Rising. The last time an all-Ireland referendum was held in the 80s, 99% of people in the north voted to keep the Act of Union (although that's because the nationalist communities boycotted it). If a unity referendum were to be held, I imagine they would still vote against it, although it would be close.

I actually can't cope with Calum being the one to complain about Bias. The hypocrisy is too much.

 

Plus BBC Scotland/Scottish Broadcasting Service is hardly going to be something that will make or break peoples votes. Film and TV will continue to be filmed and produced where ever there is sufficient tax breaks to do so. Talent can, and does, move.

 

 

I haven't actually had a chance yet to peruse the White Paper. I have seen the media reports and some of the reaction actually baffles me. It's been long stated that this would be, in a large part, the SNP's vision for an Independent country. They are trying to sell people on what Scotland could be like if we didn't have westminster to screw everything up constantly. I don't think enough has been brought up about the political differences between Scotland and RUK. We are more pro-EU and left leaning than the rest of the UK by far. There have been some whispers of what Scotland's real role model here actual is, Scandinavia. Norway, Sweden and Denmark are all countries of a similar size geographically/population wise and are probably the closest you can get to the SNP's model of a post-1/3/16 Scotland.

 

Some of the headline policies I've seen have been brilliant and the childcare pledge is sorely needed.

 

My preferred option was, and still is, Devo Max and I think not allowing the dual question was probably the stupidest thing Cameron could have done short of not allow it to happen. Devo Max would have passed comfortably and full Indie would have dropped slightly to around 25-30%. The benefit then would have been Scotland gaining the autonomy it desired and pretty much killing the independence movement. The public would see little point in removing what was left of the union and Cameron could have saved the day.

 

There is no way that this is defeated by enough margin to put this to bed. The SNP is a machine as of late. I think it will be very close and would probably put the final YES vote in the 42-53% range at the moment. I wouldn't like to bet against Alex Salmond. They were behind Labour in the polls just a couple of months before the last election and their victory was historic and absolutely incredible. (Won't be repeated at Westminster. But they will make gains from LibDems who will basically disappear from Scotland like the Tory's have)

 

As for the EU. Much like Calum talking about Bias the Tory bashing of the SNP stance on EU entry is too much. If they get their way the UK will be negotiating either an Exit or a "new deal" (A load of shit) at the same time Scotland will be trying to join.

Plus BBC Scotland/Scottish Broadcasting Service is hardly going to be something that will make or break peoples votes. Film and TV will continue to be filmed and produced where ever there is sufficient tax breaks to do so. Talent can, and does, move.

You talk as if it's not actually an important/deciding factor for anybody who is going to be voting (not that it's only BBC/SBS that is affected by the Communications and Digital chapter)? There's going to be a very large portion of people who either work in the television industry or have a large interest in it and will probably influence them. :lol: I'm probably not the only person that jumped straight to that section to see what changes were going to be made to an industry I value and care about so much; one that rules my life a very great deal and one that I will try and make a journey into and through.

Edited November 28, 201311 yr by Calum Sandé

Plus BBC Scotland/Scottish Broadcasting Service is hardly going to be something that will make or break peoples votes. Film and TV will continue to be filmed and produced where ever there is sufficient tax breaks to do so. Talent can, and does, move.

I haven't actually had a chance yet to peruse the White Paper. I have seen the media reports and some of the reaction actually baffles me. It's been long stated that this would be, in a large part, the SNP's vision for an Independent country. They are trying to sell people on what Scotland could be like if we didn't have westminster to screw everything up constantly. I don't think enough has been brought up about the political differences between Scotland and RUK. We are more pro-EU and left leaning than the rest of the UK by far. There have been some whispers of what Scotland's real role model here actual is, Scandinavia. Norway, Sweden and Denmark are all countries of a similar size geographically/population wise and are probably the closest you can get to the SNP's model of a post-1/3/16 Scotland.

 

Some of the headline policies I've seen have been brilliant and the childcare pledge is sorely needed.

 

My preferred option was, and still is, Devo Max and I think not allowing the dual question was probably the stupidest thing Cameron could have done short of not allow it to happen. Devo Max would have passed comfortably and full Indie would have dropped slightly to around 25-30%. The benefit then would have been Scotland gaining the autonomy it desired and pretty much killing the independence movement. The public would see little point in removing what was left of the union and Cameron could have saved the day.

 

There is no way that this is defeated by enough margin to put this to bed. The SNP is a machine as of late. I think it will be very close and would probably put the final YES vote in the 42-53% range at the moment. I wouldn't like to bet against Alex Salmond. They were behind Labour in the polls just a couple of months before the last election and their victory was historic and absolutely incredible. (Won't be repeated at Westminster. But they will make gains from LibDems who will basically disappear from Scotland like the Tory's have)

 

As for the EU. Much like Calum talking about Bias the Tory bashing of the SNP stance on EU entry is too much. If they get their way the UK will be negotiating either an Exit or a "new deal" (A load of shit) at the same time Scotland will be trying to join.

But that was an ELECTION, people realise that it's not electing members of parliament for four years, but breaking a union that's lasted for over 300. People will be hesitant and get cold feed.

 

I agree with your other paragraphs though. If the electorate fail to respond to the SNP's so-called vision and Scandinavian aspirations (which I think they will do), they are to an extent rejecting the existence of inherent differences between Scotland and the rUK, or at least saying that they are not significant enough to perform a fatal blow to the union.

 

I think EU membership is a lot more important. And not just economically - without wanting to be alarmist, given what happened in the first half of the 20th century compared to the second half. If Scottish independence could guarantee safety from a probable exit (and I'm very hesitant to call it probable but we'll see) then that alone would convince me independence is the right option.

After watching Question Time (held in Falkirk) before, I'm VERY worried about how this referendum is going to go. The "Better Together" people's argument is all over the place - scaremongering about the pound and the EU, even if true, is not going to work. If I lived in Scotland, I'd find it hard to argue against Nicola Sturgeon et al's argument that it's unfair for Scotland to constantly get lumped with a Tory government when they never vote for them, and I fear that argument will be very attractive to people when it comes to the crunch, especially if Labour don't more radically break from the status quo and don't give Scottish people ANY hope that things are ever going to get better.

Edited November 29, 201311 yr by Danny

there's a few key points that need addressing by the "yes" campaign: what happens when the UK tells them to sod off you can't have the pound (why should the British tax payer subsidise Indie Scot and their failed banks - as we are doing now!) and what happens if Europe tells them the same (Spain will not be in favour of membership as it will risk triggering similar votes in Catalonia).

 

Just to point out RBS & co would have bankrupted Scotland - how do they propose to deal with that risk again?

 

Presumably, all Scottish nationals currently living in England would suddenly need passports and work permits (if not in the Eurozone) and would be treated the same as all the Daily Mail "bloody foreigners taking our jobs" rhetoric, or else they stay UK and are no longer Scottish. What about all the English in Scotland? Do they get Scottish citizenship by virtue of living there ... (I havent read the paper but I'm sure they deal with all these issues at length....)

 

The whole indie basis seems to assume that the UK will do whatever Scotland wants them to continuing doing - and that, as they say, ain't necessarily so....

 

 

I would assume that Scots and UK subjects would be treated in a similar way to the agreement with Ireland.

 

There are a number of countries that use the US dollar so it really shouldn't be a big deal if Scotland wishes to use the pound. After all, Ireland continued to do so until 1979 when they joined the ERM but the UK stayed out.

It's actually quite interesting that more English people seem to be for independence than Scottish people. It says a lot about the country as a whole, and it says that the people who are against independence (in England) and who persist on slagging the country off at every opportunity they can, are making ill-informed and unjust statements when they "talk" about what they are on shows such as The Wright Stuff.

 

It's also interesting that England seem to be able to pick so many flaws in the White Paper, and try to bring down the idea of independence as much as they can, claiming that Scotland has a lot to be thankful to England for; but what they seem to be forgetting is that there are various amounts of laws that were introduced BY Scotland that the rest of the UK picked up on and still use today - the most notable example being the ban on smoking in public places. It's not us that are at fault here by trying to break away from a failing political system and aiming to provide a new, more determined one.

I am in favour of independence purely for the reason Westminster would lose loads of Labour and SNP MP's which would mean more likelyhood of continual tory rule in England