There's also the 'paying your dues' element - you can't expect to be paid well before you have acquired sufficient skills/experience to deserve it. We've all had sh1tty jobs, but most people up their skills and move on to better jobs.

 

I agree with the premise of this statement (you do more valuable work you get paid more) but I think our societal framing of the issue is completely wrong. People should not be forced to work, shitty jobs should not exist, and thankfully automation allows there to be a route out of that in the near future. But in order for it to work we need to restructure our society, make our economy more efficient, redistribute wealth from the rich and ensure everyone in our society has survival sorted, allowing everyone to have better and more fulfilling production + a healthy work-life balance.

 

I think there's a lot of potential in the working class when they aren't living on a knife's edge for survival. Some can't afford to improve themselves, some have depression. There needs to be a party that recognises that a lot of these problems are caused by systemic issues and actively looks to fundamentally change their circumstances.

I agree with the premise of this statement (you do more valuable work you get paid more) but I think our societal framing of the issue is completely wrong. People should not be forced to work, shitty jobs should not exist, and thankfully automation allows there to be a route out of that in the near future. But in order for it to work we need to restructure our society, make our economy more efficient, redistribute wealth from the rich and ensure everyone in our society has survival sorted, allowing everyone to have better and more fulfilling production + a healthy work-life balance.

 

Problem with the above is : if people don't *need* to work, then many of them *won't*, thus becoming a burden on society. Additionally, what you propose is idealism, without any practical solutions as to how it is to be achieved.

 

Like it or not, the market determines the price of labour, and historically, attempts to circumvent that have not turned out well. e.g. massive inflation.

 

Also, while minimum wage employees may find it a struggle, at least they carry no responsibility if the business goes belly-up, and they can easily find other work without a stain on their work record - not the case if you were actually running the business! There's also the 'paying your dues' element - you can't expect to be paid well before you have acquired sufficient skills/experience to deserve it. We've all had sh1tty jobs, but most people up their skills and move on to better jobs.

 

I think this argument is overly optimistic and sidesteps the fact that in many many sectors, wages have simply stopped increasing in line with inflation, and additionally the fact that we have on average a more educated and skilled population each year than ever before due to the increased prevalence of higher education. Demand outstrips supply and due to a lack of legislation preventing it, employers are taking employees for a ride.

 

Fact is you can't upskill and move on to a better job if the issues are endemic across all jobs within a particular sector in terms of the trade-off between expected effort and reward.

 

Even taking myself for example. I have been working for a decade. I'm a manager with three staff under me in a big company within the IT/finance sector, and I'm not even hitting 30k. None of us are except the older staff with the better contracts.

 

That's why I'm suspicious of relying on companies or training etc. to result in better pay. If they aren't compelled to provide such, they won't. They'll just dress it up with 'benefits' that they'll suggest in their literature/to older staff/board members are what younger staff want nowadays. I don't want beanbags and free craft coffee and a pool room, I want a 5k payrise and extra time off in lieu please.

That's why I'm suspicious of relying on companies or training etc. to result in better pay. If they aren't compelled to provide such, they won't. They'll just dress it up with 'benefits' that they'll suggest in their literature/to older staff/board members are what younger staff want nowadays. I don't want beanbags and free craft coffee and a pool room, I want a 5k payrise and extra time off in lieu please.

 

You want another 5k, that's £100 a week on top of 30k.? That's just greedy if you don't mind me saying. Many people are on less than 30k.

Edited October 28, 20195 yr by Freddie Kruger

You want another 5k, that's £100 a week on top of 30k.? That's just greedy if you don't mind me saying. Many people are on less than 30k.

 

They're working in management in the IT/finance sector — it is absolutely not greedy to wish to be paid more for your work, especially after a decade. It's also below the average salary for that job.

 

It doesn't make sense that you're accepting of large corporations exploiting their workers or corrupt politicians getting richer during political turmoil, yet you're judging normal workers who want to get paid more fairly.

Edited October 28, 20195 yr by blacksquare

Don't mind him. He's beyond hope. I bet he crows for Trump etc to get richer too :rofl:

These days loyalty doesn’t pay unfortunately. Only way at the moment to take a decent step up in pay is to find a new company. Swapping countries for me has come with a significant jump in pay and that was unfortunately the way to get what I was owed

 

You want another 5k, that's £100 a week on top of 30k.? That's just greedy if you don't mind me saying. Many people are on less than 30k.

*looks to camera*

You want another 5k, that's £100 a week on top of 30k.? That's just greedy if you don't mind me saying. Many people are on less than 30k.

 

 

Try actually working for a living and earning money like the rest of us. Then come back and tell us £30k is enough for a managerial job in 2019.

Edited October 28, 20195 yr by mald487

This.

 

He also brags about Trump and the Tory and billionaire wealth too as if he enjoys it :rofl:

Keith Vaz is facing a six-month suspension from parliament for being a very naughty boy. This means that a recall petition could be on the cards if he doesn't resign, or an election is called.

I didn't even know that was illegal oops

Problem with the above is : if people don't *need* to work, then many of them *won't*, thus becoming a burden on society. Additionally, what you propose is idealism, without any practical solutions as to how it is to be achieved.

 

Don't dismiss idealism, I always go by it, because the point of politics is to make life better and ideas are where it starts. Besides, the practical solutions are there, I outlined a basic roadmap of the aims that politicians like Sanders/Corbyn (and their successors) will lead the Western World towards.

 

You want another 5k, that's £100 a week on top of 30k.? That's just greedy if you don't mind me saying. Many people are on less than 30k.

 

See, this is the problem with the entire issue. What has the debate been around? It's been 'McDonalds workers are so greedy wanting £15, I'm worth more than that'. This is by design.

 

The anger is focused at the wrong people, and the rich are only too happy to let the working classes divide themselves amidst jealousy, encouraged by bourgeousie who have in their mind a 'proper place' for those below them (hierarchical society is a lie that we must abolish). In the end, everyone is so focused on being angry at the workers getting 'uppity' that no one thinks to look at the system that created the problem. Which is the only way it's permanently fixed.

Don't dismiss idealism, I always go by it, because the point of politics is to make life better and ideas are where it starts. Besides, the practical solutions are there, I outlined a basic roadmap of the aims that politicians like Sanders/Corbyn (and their successors) will lead the Western World towards.

 

In politics, practical means both realistically achievable, and appealing to the electorate.

Margaret Hodge was last night re-selected for Barking after attempts to oust her from the seat.

From The Guardian.

 

The super-rich are preparing to immediately leave the UK if Jeremy Corbyn becomes prime minister, fearing they will lose billions of pounds if the Labour leader does “go after” the wealthy elite with new taxes, possible capital controls and a clampdown on private schools.

 

Lawyers and accountants for the UK’s richest families said they had been deluged with calls from millionaire and billionaire clients asking for help and advice on moving countries, shifting their fortunes offshore and making early gifts to their children to avoid the Labour leader’s threat to tax all inheritances above £125,000.

 

The advisers said a Corbyn-led government was viewed as a far greater threat to the wealth and quality of life of the richest 1% than a hard Brexit.

 

 

Geoffrey Todd, a partner at the law firm Boodle Hatfield, said many of his clients had already put plans in place to transfer their wealth out of the country within minutes if Corbyn is elected.

 

“Lots of high-net worth individuals are worried about having to pay much higher taxes on their wealth and have already prepared for the possibility of a Corbyn government,” he said. “Transfers of wealth are already arranged – in many cases, all that is missing is a signature on the contract.

Edited November 2, 20195 yr by Freddie Kruger

That’s a cute article designed to scare people and nothing more. No reputable Accounting firm would be involved with that for one simple reason, DOTAS. Disclosure Of Tax Avoidance Schemes is a UK regulation that makes any arrangements (such as moving money off shore) for the explicit purpose of avoiding tax reportable to HMRC by law so that HMRC can rule on their legality and then impose penalties.

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/disclosure-of-t...e-contributions

 

 

Either these alleged wealthy families have been badly advised, have decided that the penalties are worth the risk or quite simply don’t exist and are a figment of the journalists imagination

Well Labour will have to raise taxes somewhere to pay for their 5 years of promises.

 

 

 

*smacks head through wall*

 

This is why people think you’re a troll. Honestly I’ve seen better debating skills from a f***ing Fetus.

 

 

No shit taxes will rise, not sure why that bothers you seeing as YOU DONT PAY ANY!!!

By the way I emailed Labour HQ, with a copy to 5 national newspapers and the BBC, and asked for their policy if elected regarding the Work Capability Assessment. It's unfit for purpose as proved by the number of judicial appeals being won by people wrongly found fit for work by the DWP. Corbyn promised, just after becoming leader, that it would be scrapped and the onus put back on GP's to say whether their patient was fit for any work or not. This assumes not many GP's will collude with their patients and I doubt many would. I wait a response.

*smacks head through wall*

 

This is why people think you’re a troll. Honestly I’ve seen better debating skills from a f***ing Fetus.

No shit taxes will rise, not sure why that bothers you seeing as YOU DONT PAY ANY!!!

 

 

It doesn't bother me but most people don't want their taxes to rise.

 

Hope your head's okay. :o

Edited November 2, 20195 yr by Freddie Kruger