Johnson is popular with the public unfort!

 

@1583100547107762177

 

I don't think those numbers would stand much chance of improving either, especially as scandals return with him and crisis continues.

I am NOT a centrist!!! I am a leftist, and I am immune to the centrists' propaganda, unlike you. Sorry bout it!

 

oh btw I wanted to pick up on it later because I'm bad and now we're not dealing with immediate resignation fallout it's worth discussing alternatives... (and no one is immune to propaganda)

 

Corbyn, personally, is an infinitely better person than any of the leaders in charge right now, including Starmer. However his leadership and control of his image leaves something to be desired (though post-leadership he's gotten better, just like Miliband). In part by not having great leadership skills and in part a hostile media and the hostile right of his own party, he fell into several traps, some of which Y'all Starlight has brought up in arguing with you (e.g. the media noticed he failed to deal with something and so laser-focused their spotlights on that, while just letting similar and often worse things done by the Labour right and the Tories sail by). Had he been PM, we would have had more briefings of the sort like that that turned the media and public opinion against him and perhaps even backbench rebellion and government collapse as we've just seen if he'd come out with economically illiterate plans like Truss. Note: the Labour manifestos never promised anything unrealistic, despite media wails, so I doubt he'd have done that with McDonnell beside him as McDonnell is probably one of the most economically literate people in Parliament, most certainly from the left.

 

Then there's Ukraine. The @Ukraine account has already come out for Boris to return, with mixed reactions. But Ukrainians love Boris, and whether we'd be enjoying the foreign policy benefits he won us there under another leader, under Corbyn, really doubtful. Corbyn might not have done the worst on Ukraine but he might stumble like Scholz has in Germany. When support for Ukraine is high here. It continues to baffle me how many supposed leftists and anti-imperialists don't go to the hilt to defend Ukraine and make excuses for why peace should be made where Russia gets everything it wants.

 

However all of these hypotheticals and endless raging arguments about Corbyn neglect general reality. He's not there, Starmer is. Starmer is the non-Tory candidate, he's certainly had his problems and I've constantly criticised him for those but ever since he won Beergate he's looked untouchable and statesmanlike in comparison to what's going on opposite. You vote for him, you vote to get rid of these disgusting, chaotic Tories and then we can have the conversations about how to move further left. And he might well be a leftist in disguise but actually knows how to conduct an opposition party when the government's messing things up.

 

If our government were less ideologically opposed, and yes, if the Tories and Labour were both split in two, Starmer would be the clear choice to be next PM as the sensible Moderate Party (of the Tories) and the sensible Social Democratic Party (of Labour) joined forces. All very sensible. Not necessarily all that much better, but a bit better and it would hold until the next election where Starmer would probably angle for a Social Democratic/Left/Green-or-Liberal coalition.

 

(isn't German politics great - I say, as what's happened in Sweden just very recently proves that last paragraph hopelessly optimistic)

But Germanys electoral system does kinda help here as a form of AMS like the devolved Parliaments. Think we’re stuck with broad houses for as long as we have FPTP

 

My Ukrainian friend is also pro-Boris and we’re having to be like „ok yes he was quite verbally supportive of UA but domestically the man is a traitorous useless c**t. Y’all want Yanukovych back? Coz that’s what it’d be like for us“

oh btw I wanted to pick up on it later because I'm bad and now we're not dealing with immediate resignation fallout it's worth discussing alternatives... (and no one is immune to propaganda)

 

Corbyn, personally, is an infinitely better person than any of the leaders in charge right now, including Starmer. However his leadership and control of his image leaves something to be desired (though post-leadership he's gotten better, just like Miliband). In part by not having great leadership skills and in part a hostile media and the hostile right of his own party, he fell into several traps, some of which Y'all Starlight has brought up in arguing with you (e.g. the media noticed he failed to deal with something and so laser-focused their spotlights on that, while just letting similar and often worse things done by the Labour right and the Tories sail by). Had he been PM, we would have had more briefings of the sort like that that turned the media and public opinion against him and perhaps even backbench rebellion and government collapse as we've just seen if he'd come out with economically illiterate plans like Truss. Note: the Labour manifestos never promised anything unrealistic, despite media wails, so I doubt he'd have done that with McDonnell beside him as McDonnell is probably one of the most economically literate people in Parliament, most certainly from the left.

 

Then there's Ukraine. The @Ukraine account has already come out for Boris to return, with mixed reactions. But Ukrainians love Boris, and whether we'd be enjoying the foreign policy benefits he won us there under another leader, under Corbyn, really doubtful. Corbyn might not have done the worst on Ukraine but he might stumble like Scholz has in Germany. When support for Ukraine is high here. It continues to baffle me how many supposed leftists and anti-imperialists don't go to the hilt to defend Ukraine and make excuses for why peace should be made where Russia gets everything it wants.

 

However all of these hypotheticals and endless raging arguments about Corbyn neglect general reality. He's not there, Starmer is. Starmer is the non-Tory candidate, he's certainly had his problems and I've constantly criticised him for those but ever since he won Beergate he's looked untouchable and statesmanlike in comparison to what's going on opposite. You vote for him, you vote to get rid of these disgusting, chaotic Tories and then we can have the conversations about how to move further left. And he might well be a leftist in disguise but actually knows how to conduct an opposition party when the government's messing things up.

 

If our government were less ideologically opposed, and yes, if the Tories and Labour were both split in two, Starmer would be the clear choice to be next PM as the sensible Moderate Party (of the Tories) and the sensible Social Democratic Party (of Labour) joined forces. All very sensible. Not necessarily all that much better, but a bit better and it would hold until the next election where Starmer would probably angle for a Social Democratic/Left/Green-or-Liberal coalition.

 

(isn't German politics great - I say, as what's happened in Sweden just very recently proves that last paragraph hopelessly optimistic)

 

Just wanted to say Iz, that is a fantastic post. I don't want to derail this thread in terms of a Corbyn as a figurehead, but that is a fantastic post.

 

For what is is worth, I do think Labour need to veer slightly to the left but not right now. I think you can convince people, show the benefits of a slightly higher tax society, a greener economy and creating a more inclusive culture as well. But this stuff will not happen overnight, but imo should be where Starmer utimately decides to go with the Patry and I think that is the only way to force change for good and keep the harmony (which is strong right now). Otherwise I do suspect we will see a real split in politics.

 

Don't think anyone saw this coming :lol:

 

@1583372255496896512

But Germanys electoral system does kinda help here as a form of AMS like the devolved Parliaments. Think we’re stuck with broad houses for as long as we have FPTP

 

My Ukrainian friend is also pro-Boris and we’re having to be like „ok yes he was quite verbally supportive of UA but domestically the man is a traitorous useless c**t. Y’all want Yanukovych back? Coz that’s what it’d be like for us“

 

Thankfully all Tory candidates will be supportive of Ukraine, as close to a consensus as you'll get at the moment. Though tbf they'd also all be Yanukovych-tier in Ukrainian political understanding.

 

Just wanted to say Iz, that is a fantastic post. I don't want to derail this thread in terms of a Corbyn as a figurehead, but that is a fantastic post.

 

For what is is worth, I do think Labour need to veer slightly to the left but not right now. I think you can convince people, show the benefits of a slightly higher tax society, a greener economy and creating a more inclusive culture as well. But this stuff will not happen overnight, but imo should be where Starmer utimately decides to go with the Patry and I think that is the only way to force change for good and keep the harmony (which is strong right now). Otherwise I do suspect we will see a real split in politics.

 

I think a lot of the time people do confuse the personal moral character of politicians with effective and systemic political action to make things better. I've certainly done that before! So does the media.

But to do so is, well, they're one to mere hundreds of people, in charge of millions. The focus should be their ability to commit policy that benefits the masses.

 

Given that the Tories are being forced to take many things from Labour's playbook with the only real extra being austerity and spending cuts (as Hunt's remaining in place most likely now), Labour has a lot of space to put out a recovery plan that perhaps steadily ramps up spending on reinvestment and the first steps back towards a more steady and popularly beneficial political life and program for the UK. It'll hopefully move steadily more left because of huge public pressure to fix every public service going.

 

I mean, it's why the Tories are dead in the water, spend on the things the Tories want and the markets crash as has just happened, and they will never spend on the things that need spending on because of ideological differences, so they'll try not to spend anything but the bare minimum to not have rioting and/or MPs from the opposite faction kniving them again.

 

I foresee Sunak coming in, being forced again to go against his instincts in order to politically survive, but doesn't get rid of Hunt's austerity which further stretches public services, mortgage rates aren't fixed and Sunak can't make a voting coalition and now It's Time For A Change (by Jan 2025 because of course they'll hold on). I still don't quite see how, despite the increasing clamours, a general election happens.

I cannot believe Johnson is even being allowed to stand again. After being forced out from his own party only a few months ago due to lies and scandals and with a pending investigation hanging over him. I watched Question Time last night and even the majority Tory audience were not impressed or excited about his return. I think most people from the audience want a general election now.

Johnson should have been in jail several times over by now.

Don't think anyone saw this coming :lol:

 

@1583372255496896512

 

It's all a personality cult - luckily most people in this country now would happily change the 'l' to an 'n' when talking about Johnson (sorry, hope that doesn't break the recent advice re language here!)

 

He's lazy, flip flops all the time, liar and now about half of his MPs hate him. Unless he changes drastically (which I don't believe he wants to or is capable of) Starmer doesn't have much to worry about. Yes the lead might go from 30 points to 15 but that's good enough for me.

Let's be honest - MPs are backing Boris because lots of them will see it as the only opportunity to keep their seats and their jobs. I think you'd probably get 4-5 MPs walking the floor to Labour and probably a few people resigning the whip. Just makes a mockery of Johnson being forced out and being ask to come back a few months later. Part of me thinks he wants to come back, but I wonder if he also realises it is too soon, or maybe he feels he has the numbers and can win an election in 2024/2025.

Penny Lane becomes the first to officially declare their candidacy for leader.

Opinium poll showing Johnson isn't wanted.

Overnight we ran three head-to-heads between the most likely Conservative leadership candidates. The results were:

 

> Sunak 45% vs 23% for Mordaunt

> Sunak 44% vs 31% for Johnson

> Mordaunt 36% vs 33% for Johnson

Penny Lane becomes the first to officially declare their candidacy for leader.

Is Eleanor Rigby standing as well?

Johnson's return could genuinely cause by-elections, defections, and even mass revolt given how many in the party wanted him out. I know he's got a vocal fanbase in the party and is still a media favourite, but there really would be no credibility for him as a leader and for any who voted for him after he was forced out, I refuse to believe the majority of the public are that gullible or thick that everything he did would be forgotten (apart from those that wanted him to stay in the first place, no saving them x). Honestly think he'd tank just as hard as Truss in an election, and the calls for an early one would only increase.

 

Sunak or Mordaunt, while they wouldn't succeed at uniting the party, would at the very least stabilise the current trajectory in the polls and possibly last until the next scheduled election as they're a lot more grounded and experienced and will at least give the impression of change (not that it is x), surely the party can see very well what happens when you elect someone lurching too far in one direction.

 

Although I do want the party to crash and burn as much as possible and not pull it back next election, so I guess I'd support Johnson in that case! :lol:

The Johnson fan club has spent the last few months trying to peddle the myth that Johnson was forced to resign because of a piece of cake. They will be hoping that the electorate will already have forgotten the real reasons.

 

Among the reasons was the fact that dozens of ministers resigned. None of them could maintain even a grain of credibility if they accepted a ministerial job under the lying blob of flesh. When he finally departed, there were still a number of ministerial posts left unfilled. How does he expect to fill those positions if he returns?

If they are allowed to change their minds about Johnson after 2 months then I think we should reverse the results of the last GE and Brexit. That’s why it would be unfair to let him back in.

Johnson returning = Democracy

IndyRef2 = HOW DARW YOU IGBROE 2014 WE HAD A VOTE YOU LOST LIVE WITH IT

Johnson returning = Democracy

IndyRef2 = HOW DARW YOU IGBROE 2014 WE HAD A VOTE YOU LOST LIVE WITH IT

 

Indeed, however I'm hoping now that Johnson DOES get reelected as it makes Scotland able to declare independence much sooner.

 

Just look at the absolute CHAOS it could cause:

 

@1583522228754255872

 

@1583434848898756608

 

The UK could be completely bankrupt and the Conservative party utterly destroyed!

Still looking at Tories (both Scottish and Penny Mordant just this week) talking about the economic harm that Independence would cause. Like…???? Y’all have seen what y’all have done right?

 

 

If he comes back it just strengthens again an already strong case. If he does return it feels like the UK might literally collapse

Some more...

 

@1583422713624133632

 

@1583458254109057027

 

*.*