Steve has a point, which I agree with. If you listen to the rhetoric the likes of Katie Hopkins was throwing out yesterday, it is very much "we don't hate you" whereas even if that is true or not, it is the character she is trying to be. Whereas there is a lot of hate and anger in here, which I totally understand by the way. The way to beat populism is to understand people's concerns. Yes there were a lot of racist morons at this march, but there were also a lot of people who have been influenced by populism and have concerns.

It's why part of this problem is all of our own doing and why the likes of Yaxley-Lennon has risen to prominence again.

are we seriously blaming the left for the rise of reform???? 😭😭😭

11 minutes ago, Rooney said:

Steve has a point, which I agree with. If you listen to the rhetoric the likes of Katie Hopkins was throwing out yesterday, it is very much "we don't hate you" whereas even if that is true or not, it is the character she is trying to be. Whereas there is a lot of hate and anger in here, which I totally understand by the way. The way to beat populism is to understand people's concerns. Yes there were a lot of racist morons at this march, but there were also a lot of people who have been influenced by populism and have concerns.

It's why part of this problem is all of our own doing and why the likes of Yaxley-Lennon has risen to prominence again.

Garbage. The left have been too polite for too long and that’s one of the reasons we’ve ended up here. I miss the pre-Brexit days where racists were to ashamed to speak their bile.

At the end of the day, you can’t find dress this up as ‘concerns’ all you want. They knew it was a hate rally. They knew it was being organised by a famous racist and convicted criminal. They know what the persecution of these far right rallies and the people who take part are. If they don’t want the left to point out who they are (free speech, after all) then they could easily stay at home and be concerned there. Or stage their own rally and clearly differentiate themselves from Robinson’s goons-if indeed they are different.

No, they’ve chosen the side of the racists. I’m not understanding racists or anyone who defends them. They make no attempt to ‘understand’ me or listen to my concerns.

Once they’ve gotten their way, they’ll have to look for someone else to hate.

12 minutes ago, uhsting said:

are we seriously blaming the left for the rise of reform???? 😭😭😭

Reddit is full of people saying as much.

"The more the left do x, the more they drive people to the far right" etc.

1 hour ago, T Boy said:

Whether they consider themselves racists and fascists or not, it doesn’t matter. If they went to the rally, they were endorsing its message and the behaviour. They know who Tommy Robinson is. They heard the words Elon Musk said. They’re complicit.

‘I just want to be proud of my country’. Bullshit. You can show pride in your country in so many other ways than going to London, draped in a flag, drinking and keep company with people who are fighting the police and shouting abuse at non white people. Unless all of these non racists you claim were there were actually challenging the far right men causing trouble, then what was the point?

I don’t like how being woke is now being seen as an extremist view akin to racism. Like woke people need to somehow compromise their principles of treating all people equally? You can’t find a middle ground with racists. Being woke is just being a decent person with a social conscience. Being racist is being hateful to anyone that doesn’t fit your image.

Incidentally, watching the Last Night of The Proms last night, getting to Rule Britannia, Jerusalem et al, struck me as a great example of the best way to be patriotic, celebrating what makes this country great, for anyone who happens to be here, in the now, and making it a good place to be in the future. Crucially, the racists demanding that divisive rhetoric be attached to that imagery of our country is one of the more heinous side-effects of their bigotry, tainting that which unites those of us who aren't colossal cvnts into a community.

26 minutes ago, Hassaan said:

Reddit is full of people saying as much.

"The more the left do x, the more they drive people to the far right" etc.

This line is again, almost exclusively used by racists, bigots, Reform voters or whoever else who know that they can't justify their heinous views by saying them out loud and so instead pretend that they have been driven to it by supposed crimes of their adversaries. Which is weak, unprincipled horseshit even if it were true so I'm not sure why anyone lets them get away with that justification.

Nothing people who are not these racists have done is responsible for them going to a racist criminal's march like SYL's, nor listening to a foreign unelected billionaire like Musk call for a coup and overthrow of our government. It's obvious what the march was for, it's obvious to anyone with a brain what happened there and I'm sorry, anyone who was there is complicit in letting malevolent far-right forces stand in a position of power in our democracy.

1 hour ago, Rooney said:

Steve has a point, which I agree with. If you listen to the rhetoric the likes of Katie Hopkins was throwing out yesterday, it is very much "we don't hate you" whereas even if that is true or not, it is the character she is trying to be. Whereas there is a lot of hate and anger in here, which I totally understand by the way. The way to beat populism is to understand people's concerns. Yes there were a lot of racist morons at this march, but there were also a lot of people who have been influenced by populism and have concerns.

It's why part of this problem is all of our own doing and why the likes of Yaxley-Lennon has risen to prominence again.

Completely right. There is an issue with immigration, so engage the people on that issue, don't call thek rscists - nd radicalise the right AND centre - and you can win the election. But you have to engage.

The way I always see it - stick any of those people at the rally under a lie detector and I think you'd find most of them are racist/xenophonic/homophobic/transphobic, sexist etc

It's easy to get away with things like 'I'm not this but.....'

It's essential to distinguish between the "true believer" racists/ fascists and those swept up in the rhetoric, because unfortunately Reform has effective, powerful rhetoric (not helped by our awful right wing media, even the BBC is complicit in wildly disproportionate coverage of Reform and Farage). Reform correctly diagnoses problems, then provides either no solutions or disastrous ones that would actually exacerbate the problems but on a surface level sound good. People are suffering economically and want someone to blame, billionaires and corporations desperately want to distract people with something and immigration is the perfect scapegoat, there is a legitimate issue there due to the abysmal handling of asylum processing under the Tories and the still existing backlog in that system. The fact that small boats make up 2-3% of total immigration is irrelevant, politics is about narrative, and the narrative is "your life is worse due to public services and taxpayer money being strained by immigration", instead of "the top 1% are slowly acquiring assets ordinary people used to own".

I have no sympathy for most of the flag shaggers marching yesterday, especially those lapping up words from Elon Musk of all people (aside, the irony of "patriots" cheering on a foreign billionaire directly attempting to interfere in our democracy is quite something) but we can't afford to lose everyone thinking of voting Reform forever, there will always be the 15%ish fascist rump and f*** them, they'll reveal themselves every time they open their mouths, especially as they've been emboldened in recent times. Others however, are understandably disillusioned with neoliberalism and a stagnant economy and in their minds see someone presenting an alternative to the status quo. They're wrong, I shudder to think what might happen to our country should Reform get anywhere near power, but the people who can be reached need to be reached, not with watered down right wing rhetoric that Labour are attempting to co-opt, but with a real alternative. If there's no political rehabilitation possible we might as well just give up. I know of people who have successfully pulled themselves out of ring-wing thinking, which is only really possible if there are lifelines from the left.

All that said, outward bigotry should still be socially stigmatised, some of these bast*rds used to at least need to dog whistle.. :/

3 hours ago, T Boy said:

Garbage. The left have been too polite for too long and that’s one of the reasons we’ve ended up here. I miss the pre-Brexit days where racists were to ashamed to speak their bile.

At the end of the day, you can’t find dress this up as ‘concerns’ all you want. They knew it was a hate rally. They knew it was being organised by a famous racist and convicted criminal. They know what the persecution of these far right rallies and the people who take part are. If they don’t want the left to point out who they are (free speech, after all) then they could easily stay at home and be concerned there. Or stage their own rally and clearly differentiate themselves from Robinson’s goons-if indeed they are different.

No, they’ve chosen the side of the racists. I’m not understanding racists or anyone who defends them. They make no attempt to ‘understand’ me or listen to my concerns.

Once they’ve gotten their way, they’ll have to look for someone else to hate.

But this is exactly what these people want, they want you to feel anger so that in turn it causes division and ultimately people end up being forced to pick a side. Lots of people have concerns about immigration, rightly or wrongly. That's when you get 'normal' people who end up being radicalised, or normal people who end up voting a right win populist Party like Reform, as it's framed as A or B, rather than a pragmatic view. It ends up playing in to their narrative. It's important to reference that there was more people who didn't attend the 'rally' yesterday than did. It's a very vocal group, but it's also a lot of noise.

Of course no-one has created this. My view is as a society we ultimately moved too fast too soon without bringing people along on the journey. Then you have people saying phases like 'white privieldge' which yes I totally get, but if you start telling people who live in deprivation who have no hope and have seen their town become ghost like, it doesn't really help matters imo. All it does it stoke fires and allow these people to become radicalised by people with ill-intentions. But these pockets have always existed, the problem is now you have a lot more money behind the movements and people who can be captivating speakers unlike the likes of Nick Griffin.

Ultimately we are in a day of social media where people can control the narrative and until these places end up being regulated we're always going to be in a mess.

It isn’t anger on my part though. It’s calling a spade a spade. Or a racist a racist.

You can dress it up any way you want, but anyone who went to take part in the rally is a racist. They knew what it was and still went. If they don’t like being called racist, then do something more positive about their concerns.

I have taken issue however with the want for some ‘middle ground’ between racism and being a decent person. What nonsense.

The problem is, we’ve heard their concerns. Over and over. It’s all we hear. But they don’t want to reciprocate. People can try explaining things to them but they won’t listen and that’s when the name calling comes in and they call people nonces just because they’re not racist.

Why is it always the left that has to compromise for these idiots?

It doesn't help that this issue is always reporte4d from the perspective that "Immigration is a problem". The alternative view is rarely presented despite the fact that two GB-wide parties in parliament, the Lib Dems and Greens, are much more positive about refugees and immigration in general.

2 hours ago, Suedehead2 said:

It doesn't help that this issue is always reporte4d from the perspective that "Immigration is a problem". The alternative view is rarely presented despite the fact that two GB-wide parties in parliament, the Lib Dems and Greens, are much more positive about refugees and immigration in general.

Any rise in population to current levels was ALWAYS going to be a problem for an island with limited resources, namely water and space. 1 million a year is not sustainable.

On 10/09/2025 at 20:00, T Boy said:

You’re great at putting words into my mouth, aren’t you?

The evil and stupid I referred to was the reform voters. And yeah, actually, it kind of applies to anyone voting Tories at the last election too as their values and policies were damaging.

11 million people at the very least would be below average intelligence though if you think about it. It’s how averages work.

Yes you haven’t actually stated you support Reform but you’re heavily critical of posters here who have no time for bigotry. I’m not sure why me giving my opinion on reform supporters is rankling you so if you really aren’t one?

Perhaps this is your chance to put that issue to bed and declare which party it is that you’re backing?

I didn't put words in your mouth. I ask you to clarify whether that was what you were implying and you've more or less just confirmed that,

My political views don't align with any of the main parties. They all have policies I'm completely against.

7 hours ago, T Boy said:

Garbage. The left have been too polite for too long and that’s one of the reasons we’ve ended up here. I miss the pre-Brexit days where racists were to ashamed to speak their bile.

At the end of the day, you can’t find dress this up as ‘concerns’ all you want. They knew it was a hate rally. They knew it was being organised by a famous racist and convicted criminal. They know what the persecution of these far right rallies and the people who take part are. If they don’t want the left to point out who they are (free speech, after all) then they could easily stay at home and be concerned there. Or stage their own rally and clearly differentiate themselves from Robinson’s goons-if indeed they are different.

No, they’ve chosen the side of the racists. I’m not understanding racists or anyone who defends them. They make no attempt to ‘understand’ me or listen to my concerns.

Once they’ve gotten their way, they’ll have to look for someone else to hate.

I take Rooney and Steve's point but I agree with this. I want to live in a country where racists are scared, because they should be. They should be worried that if they spread their bile and lies they might get a slap or a fine for it, because that's how it should be. It's not a 'difference of opinion' or a 'debate' if you're a person who believes that - and will try and campaign to make it legal that - some people deserve to be treated as less-than and discriminated against just because of their bloody APPEARANCE.

I kind of knew writing my post this morning I would come in here in the evening with an intense debate on all sides. It unfort shows how polarised the debate has become about this over the past few years.

It was also written from the point of view about how we can stop these people gaining the traction they are and stopping a man like Farage getting into power in 2029.

Unfortunately I have to reiterate my own opinion of disgust at the march yday as people have assumed that I must somehow support that view.

I think the difference of opinion simply comes on how to counter them and whether there’s a middle ground. I personally think there is a middle ground. Not everyone has the same opinion on every aspect of things.

4 minutes ago, Steve201 said:

I kind of knew writing my post this morning I would come in here in the evening with an intense debate on all sides. It unfort shows how polarised the debate has become about this over the past few years.

It was also written from the point of view about how we can stop these people gaining the traction they are and stopping a man like Farage getting into power in 2029.

Unfortunately I have to reiterate my own opinion of disgust at the march yday as people have assumed that I must somehow support that view.

I think the difference of opinion simply comes on how to counter them and whether there’s a middle ground. I personally think there is a middle ground. Not everyone has the same opinion on every aspect of things.

I don’t anyone here has accused you of approving yesterday’s march. Point me to those posts if I’m wrong.

I just disagreed with you that there’s a middle ground between racism and ‘wokeism’. Being woke just means you’re a decent human being without discriminatory views of minority groups. Racism is the opposite of that. I can’t really work with people who are even partially racist, it’s not a compromise I’d be willing to make.

I'm always suspicious of those who appear to be extremely passionate about immigration, because they seem like the kind of people who don't really like anyone. Even if they happened to be satisfied with whatever was done about that, they'd move on to something else.

I thought the riots last year and the subsequent arrests made for violent behaviour would have set an example but clearly they need to go in heavier.

Who are they even aiming their protests at?

The thing for me is a lot of these people are just thick and/or don’t know better and populism prays on that. The likes of Farage and Hopkins play the right character in the right way to appeal to these disillusioned people. And I do think Labour are blame somewhat, they have betrayed working class people and let everyone down, but that doesn’t mean people should start flocking to a party founded on hatred of anyone who isn’t white and straight. And because there isn’t enough political education in school etc, people don’t research or really know how to decide who to vote for. Reform is very meticulously crafted to appeal to those kinds of people, which is the danger of it and precisely why it’s risen so quickly, especially with the Tories collapsing and a terrible Labour government currently.

I do try and understand how people get to that point, as it’s interesting to me at least. And I can understand it, I can see why people who don’t know any better, who have been shunned by other parties or let down, would look to the flashy new alternative. But even if these people “aren’t racist”, they are showing up in droves and hyping up people who proudly are. And they’re falling for all the rhetoric, end up parroting it themselves. Because ostensibly these protests are about immigration, they’re worried about their kids safety and future, whatever, but they’re standing there mocking religion, then they’ll be transphobic, then they’ll be against Pride and its flags, there is absolutely no point to Reform other than being utterly utterly hateful.

The other thing I can’t stop thinking about is say Reform win an election, deport loads of people, and all these working class people/people on benefits etc are struggling still, who will they blame then?

Also I can't stand it when they go "he says what we're all thinking" or "he says what everyone's too afraid to say".

I'm just like, go on. Say it. If you're so proud, why not?

The Independent

Nigel Farage claims ‘most stable relationships’ are betwe...

The Reform UK leader was accused of ‘vile homophobia’ after claiming that heterosexual relationships ‘last the longest’

Here comes the open homophobia we were looking forward to