They've defaced Churchil''s statue in London today. Disgraceful.

 

Ahahahahaha great work imo! Aul bigot that he was!

I honestly don't understand how people are getting more angry and upset at statues (of racists at that) being defaced than actual living human lives. Just say you're racist and move on, because I guarantee no one genuinely cares about some proxy statues of out and out racists.

Poll from YouGov today:

 

Do you approve or disapprove of protesters in Bristol pulling down the statue of Edward Colston?

 

Approve of the statue being removed and the way in which it was done - 13%

Approve of the statue being removed, but not in the way in which it was done - 40%

Disapprove of the statue being removed - 33%

Don’t know - 14%

 

I guess it’s encouraging that the majority of the population support the racist having his statue removed?

 

Poll from YouGov today:

 

Do you approve or disapprove of protesters in Bristol pulling down the statue of Edward Colston?

 

Approve of the statue being removed and the way in which it was done - 13%

Approve of the statue being removed, but not in the way in which it was done - 40%

Disapprove of the statue being removed - 33%

Don’t know - 14%

 

I guess it’s encouraging that the majority of the population support the racist having his statue removed?

 

It’s only 53% though which is worrying.

 

Though we ended up with Brexit on less, I guess.

Edited June 8, 20205 yr by T Boy

I honestly don't understand how people are getting more angry and upset at statues (of racists at that) being defaced than actual living human lives. Just say you're racist and move on, because I guarantee no one genuinely cares about some proxy statues of out and out racists.

 

 

Winston Churchill was one of our greatest ever PM's, Statesmen and war-leaders and one of the very few non-royals to be given a full State funeral.

Poll from YouGov today:

 

Do you approve or disapprove of protesters in Bristol pulling down the statue of Edward Colston?

 

Approve of the statue being removed and the way in which it was done - 13%

Approve of the statue being removed, but not in the way in which it was done - 40%

Disapprove of the statue being removed - 33%

Don’t know - 14%

 

I guess it’s encouraging that the majority of the population support the racist having his statue removed?

 

 

Must admit I'd never heard of him until the other day and lots hadn't according to Twitter and other forums.

I think if you asked the same group ‘Who was Edward Colston?’ the day before it was pulled down you'd get an answer close to zero, so if it has achieved one thing it has at least educated a lot of people.

 

... and as for the most popular option. Well..

 

@1269961630940631041

Winston Churchill was one of our greatest ever PM's, Statesmen and war-leaders and one of the very few non-royals to be given a full State funeral.

He can't be that great really if he referred to Indians as "beastly people with a beastly religion" and the reason nearly four million Bengals starved to death after he said famine was their fault for breeding like rabbits.

 

But sure what a great guy he was. Give me a break.

Winston Churchill was one of our greatest ever PM's, Statesmen and war-leaders and one of the very few non-royals to be given a full State funeral.

 

He also had clearly racist views, advocated his 'superior' race taking over from another one and supported continuing the horrendous British Empire, I'm not denying his triumphs, but that doesn't clear him no matter how much Britain seems willing to forget that. I'm not advocating vandalism of statues, but it was effective as a way to expose that the racism that still lingers (and ofc. provoke a response from the government who have predictably exposed themselves).

 

As for the Colston statue, I'd never heard of him admittedly, now I cannot believe that was allowed to stay up that long...

If anything, Churchill leading Britain to victory has only intensified the racism and xenophobia rife within our society. Sure, I’m glad we weren’t defeated. But the entitlement and ‘we won the War’ attitude is one of the most horrific things about Britain and people think it gives them the right to look down on other nations.

 

That and ‘we had an Empire!’

Poll from YouGov today:

 

Do you approve or disapprove of protesters in Bristol pulling down the statue of Edward Colston?

 

Approve of the statue being removed and the way in which it was done - 13%

Approve of the statue being removed, but not in the way in which it was done - 40%

Disapprove of the statue being removed - 33%

Don’t know - 14%

 

I guess it’s encouraging that the majority of the population support the racist having his statue removed?

 

It seems like they had numerous votes on removing the statue and it was always rejected, so I’m not sure what other method the 40% are suggesting.

I honestly can’t wrap my head around people being outraged by this

It seems like they had numerous votes on removing the statue and it was always rejected, so I’m not sure what other method the 40% are suggesting.

I honestly can’t wrap my head around people being outraged by this

 

Well that's just it isn't it, I don't agree the statue should have stood in the first place, it should have been confined to a museum way before this ever happened but, the law is the law as well. I haven't seen much outrage myself, personally I feel this one is all on Bristol council.

 

It's a bit like the Winston Churchill statue. Now before anyone has a massive go at me, I'm purely looking at it from a different lens. It's quite clear he had some bigoted views and I'm not saying they were right, but I will say that views were very different in the 1940s compared to 2020 which is a great example of how modern society has adapted and learned what is right and wrong (on the whole as it's clear a lot of those views are still held by some people). The guy was clearly not the perfect saint he's painted out to be, but he's symbolic with Britain helping defeat the Nazis. There is no denying his leadership played a huge part in us not being in some dystopian future where millions of people are persecuted, executed and cleansed from the world because they don't fit an ideology. Regardless of people's views, my own view point is if you are wanting the average Joe/Jane to feel sympathy and solidarity for the the Black Lives Movement, I don't think defacing a Churchill statue will achieve change, it's more likely to breed the opposite.

Well that's just it isn't it, I don't agree the statue should have stood in the first place, it should have been confined to a museum way before this ever happened but, the law is the law as well. I haven't seen much outrage myself, personally I feel this one is all on Bristol council.

 

It's a bit like the Winston Churchill statue. Now before anyone has a massive go at me, I'm purely looking at it from a different lens. It's quite clear he had some bigoted views and I'm not saying they were right, but I will say that views were very different in the 1940s compared to 2020 which is a great example of how modern society has adapted and learned what is right and wrong (on the whole as it's clear a lot of those views are still held by some people). The guy was clearly not the perfect saint he's painted out to be, but he's symbolic with Britain helping defeat the Nazis. There is no denying his leadership played a huge part in us not being in some dystopian future where millions of people are persecuted, executed and cleansed from the world because they don't fit an ideology. Regardless of people's views, my own view point is if you are wanting the average Joe/Jane to feel sympathy and solidarity for the the Black Lives Movement, I don't think defacing a Churchill statue will achieve change, it's more likely to breed the opposite.

 

Yes, I feel you are right about Churchill. I don't think you can draw any eqivalence between Colston and Churchill whatsoever, other than they were both Tory MPs.

 

I think part of the problem is that Churchill and the undoubted critical role he played in World War II has ironically (given its defeat of facism, antisemitism etc.) been fetishised by the far right in this country, and that whole period has been held up blindly as ‘The greatest moment’ of post-imperial Britain, where the UK “stood alone” in our darkest hour to defeat evil - it has become so deeply embedded within our collective identity and culture that he has become the symbol that represents the immense sacrifice and unity that the people of that time displayed to defeat the Nazis. So to attack that statue actually feels like it is a direct attack on all of that instead, and that doesn't help this incredibly important BLM movement take the public with them - in fact it probably does the opposite as you say Rooney and risks playing into the hands of the racists. I don't think people should underestimate how powerful a symbol he is across society and political beliefs, despite his faults, which many of the time shared (I'm not in ANY way condoning them).

 

I think there is another irony here about Churchill and Brexiteers (who also festishise the nostalgia around World War II) because the guy was pro-European: “Britain will have to play her full part as a member of the European family” and recognised that only by working together in Europe that the UK would continue to have a critical role as its empire fell and power waned. They use him in order to peddle their naive and deluded belief that we should all believe in Britain and go it alone but as the UK found in the 1950s at Suez, isolation from our closest allies can and will lead to humiliation and destitution (The 'sick man of Europe'). Churchill would have been a remainer.

 

The Colston statue had to go, and its removal was a powerful and important statement - I applaud the way that the local Bristolian police force handled it too. However, we need to think carefully before rushing to tear down other statues to avoid risking tearing down public support that has been built up so far.

Yes, I feel you are right about Churchill. I don't think you can draw any eqivalence between Colston and Churchill whatsoever, other than they were both Tory MPs.

 

I think part of the problem is that Churchill and the undoubted critical role he played in World War II has ironically (given its defeat of facism, antisemitism etc.) been fetishised by the far right in this country, and that whole period has been held up blindly as ‘The greatest moment’ of post-imperial Britain, where the UK “stood alone” in our darkest hour to defeat evil - it has become so deeply embedded within our collective identity and culture that he has become the symbol that represents the immense sacrifice and unity that the people of that time displayed to defeat the Nazis. So to attack that statue actually feels like it is a direct attack on all of that instead, and that doesn't help this incredibly important BLM movement take the public with them - in fact it probably does the opposite as you say Rooney and risks playing into the hands of the racists. I don't think people should underestimate how powerful a symbol he is across society and political beliefs, despite his faults, which many of the time shared (I'm not in ANY way condoning them).

 

I think there is another irony here about Churchill and Brexiteers (who also festishise the nostalgia around World War II) because the guy was pro-European: “Britain will have to play her full part as a member of the European family” and recognised that only by working together in Europe that the UK would continue to have a critical role as its empire fell and power waned. They use him in order to peddle their naive and deluded belief that we should all believe in Britain and go it alone but as the UK found in the 1950s at Suez, isolation from our closest allies can and will lead to humiliation and destitution (The 'sick man of Europe'). Churchill would have been a remainer.

 

The Colston statue had to go, and its removal was a powerful and important statement - I applaud the way that the local Bristolian police force handled it too. However, we need to think carefully before rushing to tear down other statues to avoid risking tearing down public support that has been built up so far.

 

Pretty much exactly my feelings too, as time as gone on he's clearly now symbolic with Britain defeating the Nazis. If there's one thing that Britain love it's a war veteran. I mean I do find it hilarious how the grafitti on the statue has wound by the Far-Right nutjobs, so the irony is not lost on me that Churchill would have no time for these people whatsoever as he opposed Fascism and like you say was Pro-European.

 

I'm all for consigning statues to museums that no longer represent the world we live in. I think it's pretty distasteful. I feel it's important that these artifacts remain, as painful as it can be, I don't agree with trying to wipe out history.

Incredibly sad to read this, but not at all surprising unfortunately. I hope this continues to be a wake-up call for us all - I've seen the footage and it is awful.

 

@1270313667108667392

The statue discourse I find very interesting because I'd be very happy to see the majority of them gone, statues are as a whole an element of society which promotes the idea of 'national heroes' or 'heroism' in general and there are so few historical figures worthy of that, particularly political leaders. It's also something I don't believe is particularly healthy, because it teaches you to be uncritical of them and other larger-than-life figures, when they were all humans with flaws, many of these with pretty big flaws. And I'm very happy to see the Colston one go as an example of direct action doing what proper channels and talking was clearly unable to do, and I also hope Priti Patel's desire to prosecute those who pulled it down comes to nothing, the height of hypocrisy given Cummings...

 

Definitely hoping this is the start of at least that Rhodes statue at the Oxford college to be removed, along with any other statues of racist colonialisers that are kicking about. They were considered racists in their time, they shouldn't be honoured in any way today.

 

I do agree with you guys on the idea that yes, attacking Churchill publically isn't actually a great look, but I also hope that it's the start of demystifying him, basically because of all of this:

 

I think part of the problem is that Churchill and the undoubted critical role he played in World War II has ironically (given its defeat of facism, antisemitism etc.) been fetishised by the far right in this country, and that whole period has been held up blindly as ‘The greatest moment’ of post-imperial Britain, where the UK “stood alone” in our darkest hour to defeat evil - it has become so deeply embedded within our collective identity and culture that he has become the symbol that represents the immense sacrifice and unity that the people of that time displayed to defeat the Nazis. So to attack that statue actually feels like it is a direct attack on all of that instead, and that doesn't help this incredibly important BLM movement take the public with them - in fact it probably does the opposite as you say Rooney and risks playing into the hands of the racists. I don't think people should underestimate how powerful a symbol he is across society and political beliefs, despite his faults, which many of the time shared (I'm not in ANY way condoning them).

 

There is something deeply wrong with our national psyche and a lot of that is embedded in the idea of the Churchill hero worship/WW2 plucky victor fetishisation. Of course there were so many more people that played a vital role in the war (how many people say Stalin defeated the Nazis with the same readiness they say Churchill?). It will undoubtedly take its time to change, but I hope this is the start of it.

 

Those awful videos from Hoddesdon are a great example of the problems we are facing, angry white men who, having grown up with mostly other whites, feel as though these movements attack them, when the goal is to just include everyone, but then that's an attack on the social status of the whites.

 

I do agree with you guys on the idea that yes, attacking Churchill publically isn't actually a great look, but I also hope that it's the start of demystifying him, basically because of all of this:

There is something deeply wrong with our national psyche and a lot of that is embedded in the idea of the Churchill hero worship/WW2 plucky victor fetishisation. Of course there were so many more people that played a vital role in the war (how many people say Stalin defeated the Nazis with the same readiness they say Churchill?). It will undoubtedly take its time to change, but I hope this is the start of it.

 

I don't think it's possible, he is certainly just a figure of WW2. I think that's one thing you just have to clock down to British culture, most British people are a sucker for anything armed forces related. And obviously we were probably only a couple of months away from being taken over by the Nazis, let's be honest. I totally agree Churchill while very important, was not the only person who helped defeat the Nazis, be that worldwide or of course other British people themselves. He's a clear example that it's human nature to be flawed, nobody is perfect.

The statue discourse I find very interesting because I'd be very happy to see the majority of them gone, statues are as a whole an element of society which promotes the idea of 'national heroes' or 'heroism' in general and there are so few historical figures worthy of that, particularly political leaders. It's also something I don't believe is particularly healthy, because it teaches you to be uncritical of them and other larger-than-life figures, when they were all humans with flaws, many of these with pretty big flaws. And I'm very happy to see the Colston one go as an example of direct action doing what proper channels and talking was clearly unable to do, and I also hope Priti Patel's desire to prosecute those who pulled it down comes to nothing, the height of hypocrisy given Cummings...

 

Definitely hoping this is the start of at least that Rhodes statue at the Oxford college to be removed, along with any other statues of racist colonialisers that are kicking about. They were considered racists in their time, they shouldn't be honoured in any way today.

 

I do agree with you guys on the idea that yes, attacking Churchill publically isn't actually a great look, but I also hope that it's the start of demystifying him, basically because of all of this:

There is something deeply wrong with our national psyche and a lot of that is embedded in the idea of the Churchill hero worship/WW2 plucky victor fetishisation. Of course there were so many more people that played a vital role in the war (how many people say Stalin defeated the Nazis with the same readiness they say Churchill?). It will undoubtedly take its time to change, but I hope this is the start of it.

 

Those awful videos from Hoddesdon are a great example of the problems we are facing, angry white men who, having grown up with mostly other whites, feel as though these movements attack them, when the goal is to just include everyone, but then that's an attack on the social status of the whites.

This is very similar to Russia & Stalin. It's embedded so far into older generation's minds that it really impedes progress. All this soviet nostalgia stuff is a huge catalyst. I don't know how anyone who read up about him or lived through his time as a ruler can still support that heinous person but here we are.

@1270425865273389056

 

Without Bristol, this wouldn't be happening. There are already numerous things happening across the world — police budgets and policies changing, salary discrepancies being discussed and reviewed, board members stepping down, statues being removed, etc — thanks to direct action and protest.

Edited June 9, 20205 yr by blacksquare

Statue of that vile unholy evil thundercunt thatcher next please!!