Masks will come back as compulsory and nightclubs are going to shut again too. I don't agree with the decision either and imo it is purely a political one and will be re-introduced in September time. I suspect for the most part compliance of masks will be pretty high going off the data, what I am more worried about is the Mask wearer vs non-mask wearing debates and arguments that are going to start happening. I totally get people are scared and a little bit fearful - you know what, I am too. But is literally is now or Spring 2022.

 

The problem society has is if we're saying we can't open up when we have a high vaccination coverage as per Israel, just when do we open up?

 

I don’t have the exact vaccination figures for Israel but their infection levels are much lower than ours and Israel has one of the highest vaccination rates in the world. The problem in the U.K. is that we still have around 40-45% of our population who are not vaccinated and rising infection levels due to the delta variant. Most of the new cases here are in people who aren’t vaccinated which on the one hand is positive because clearly vaccines are working. Opening up fully should only take place in the right conditions such as a low level of infections and with appropriate other mitigation measures. As I’ve said before, I think realistically we are all going to have to accept some level of restrictions in the future again due to the pandemic.

Latest news shows that there have been over 50,000 new cases in the last 24 hours, the highest it's been in six months.

 

Plus - and this is particularly shocking - 1 in 95 people in England had Coronavirus last week!

 

So what are we going to do... scrap all our restrictions and get on with life apparently :unsure:

Yes most, but not all. The double vaccination clearly is saving lives and meaning if people who are admitted to hospital with it, they have a greater chance of fighting it off. There was a good news report from Preston on this. The vaccine numbers are falling off a cliff now, there's about 10% of the adult population who have not even had a 1st jab. A small proportion of this is people who can't have the jab for medical reasons. I think we're seeing the Euros effect here at the moment, which happened in Scotland too with increased social contacts.

 

I'm just of the idealism that if we don't unlock restrictions now, unlocking them in September/October is going to be far worse that you might as well not bother. I really do feel it's a now or never scenario, the science says as much. We will have a far longer exit wave, but I'm not sure we will get to the point where we have a massive singular peak, I just suspect it will be more constant.

 

Why do you think delaying lockdown until later in the year when we have better vaccine coverage will be far worse? There is no scientific evidence to suggest this and in fact, I would say all the evidence points to the opposite. For example, if you take Preston which you referred to, high vaccine coverage is already having a positive impact on cases. I repeat again that it makes no logical sense at all to unlock everything now and carries significant other risks which I’ve already outlined and the approach has been heavily criticised by many health experts.

Why do you think delaying lockdown until later in the year when we have better vaccine coverage will be far worse? There is no scientific evidence to suggest this and in fact, I would say all the evidence points to the opposite. For example, if you take Preston which you referred to, high vaccine coverage is already having a positive impact on cases. I repeat again that it makes no logical sense at all to unlock everything now and carries significant other risks which I’ve already outlined and the approach has been heavily criticised by many health experts.

 

Because if we delay opening any longer than Monday, we push the wave back. There’s going to be all sorts of other respiratory viruses as well as covid. So people have a lower threshold to all of the other coronaviruses that are in circulation. So you push the idea of people catching covid and flu at the same time.

 

I’ve seen various scientists saying that even a full scale lockdown wouldn’t be able to push the R rate of the Delta variant under 1. Yes vaccines are having an effect but they cannot allow herd immunity for Delta. Cases are sky high and Im against some of the Government policy as I believe it purely political and not for the good of the public health. But relaxing restrictions in September is going to be a nightmare and the rest of Europe will face a similar huge exit wave, possibly not to the U.K. levels as seen currently but we’re not going to get vaccine coverage that much higher unless we start jabbing teenagers and under 16s. Then there’s the moral/ethical debate about that in a vaccine format which we’ve avoided for now, but need to have make a decision about it.

Because if we delay opening any longer than Monday, we push the wave back. There’s going to be all sorts of other respiratory viruses as well as covid. So people have a lower threshold to all of the other coronaviruses that are in circulation. So you push the idea of people catching covid and flu at the same time.

 

I’ve seen various scientists saying that even a full scale lockdown wouldn’t be able to push the R rate of the Delta variant under 1. Yes vaccines are having an effect but they cannot allow herd immunity for Delta. Cases are sky high and Im against some of the Government policy as I believe it purely political and not for the good of the public health. But relaxing restrictions in September is going to be a nightmare and the rest of Europe will face a similar huge exit wave, possibly not to the U.K. levels as seen currently but we’re not going to get vaccine coverage that much higher unless we start jabbing teenagers and under 16s. Then there’s the moral/ethical debate about that in a vaccine format which we’ve avoided for now, but need to have make a decision about it.

 

Yes, there will be all the usual respiratory viruses around in the autumn but that’s inevitable anyway as more people are mixing. That’s why, I’m making the point again that the current approach is completely reckless by allowing the virus to rip through the population and largely affect those who are unvaccinated. Case numbers and deaths are already rising and there is usually a lag effect of between 3-6 weeks so we haven’t even seen the peak yet and by autumn time, I expect things will be much worse. The NHS is likely to be overwhelmed again, there will be considerable disruption to many sectors of industry due to the need to self-isolate and the possibility of a dangerous variant increases with higher cases. And that will be on top of all the usual respiratory conditions and flu which the NHS has to deal with in the autumn!

 

Why do you think there have been so many other countries such as Italy and New Zealand along with numerous health experts who have criticised the approach and virtually no other countries are following our reckless approach?

Edited July 16, 20214 yr by slowdown73

One thing that will be interesting to see is how the cases go once children and education workers aren’t testing twice weekly.

Yes, there will be all the usual respiratory viruses around in the autumn but that’s inevitable anyway as more people are mixing. That’s why, I’m making the point again that the current approach is completely reckless by allowing the virus to rip through the population and largely affect those who are unvaccinated. Case numbers and deaths are already rising and there is usually a lag effect of between 3-6 weeks so we haven’t even seen the peak yet and by autumn time, I expect things will be much worse. The NHS is likely to be overwhelmed again, there will be considerable disruption to many sectors of industry due to the need to self-isolate and the possibility of a dangerous variant increases with higher cases. And that will be on top of all the usual respiratory conditions and flu which the NHS has to deal with in the autumn!

 

Why do you think there have been so many other countries such as Italy and New Zealand along with numerous health experts who have criticised the approach and virtually no other countries are following our reckless approach?

 

Yeah but that's the point I'm making - all the other respiratory virsues and covid with no community immunity. That is also a recipe for disaster. so you push the exit wave in to the autumn & winter. There will be a huge exit wave across Europe too. We've got about 3-4m adults that are unvaccinated and won't get vaccinated. Personally, I feel the Government should have invested in more local PHE strategy to encourage uptake ready for a summer wave. Cases are rising a lot because of the football.. we're definitely seeing the Euros effect in England right now

 

Yes, deaths are rising which is to be expected. Without wanting to sound too heartless, we don't report on the deaths of heart disease or cancer every day. Unless it gets in to 500+ numbers per day I don't think it's much use as an outlier. People are always going to be dying of covid, it's fixed in the community now.

 

I can't speak for other countries, but we're a couple of weeks ahead of most of Europe with vaccines and I suspect a lot of Europe will unlock restrictions, just with masks still mandated (which I am fully for and do feel it is silly of the Government to not mandate, but suspect most of the country will still wear a mask). I'm for the restrictions being lifted, I just disagree with how the Government are mitigating the risks associated with it as I will put good money on them changing their minds come September.

 

 

If it's any comfort apparently cases in Scotland peaked at the start of the month and hospital admissions have also been falling recently. There's a daily post on Reddit that details everything -

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/CoronavirusUK/comm...pdate/?sort=new

I wish I could share your optimism on masks. When I got off my bus home this afternoon, I was the only passenger (of about 20) wearing one.

errr people who have health conditions and die are not as a result of a disease that isn't going away. The argument that you learn to live with it is a fake argument: this is not the Middle Ages where you don't have a choice and you either die or recover. We as a democratic society with modern science at our disposal have many alternatives at our disposal.

 

Choosing to let (at the the moment) 50 people die a day in order to start off a huge wave of infections is a choice, not an inevitability, and if I were the rest of the world I would ban people from the UK from entering my country until we see what the result will be. Not what I want, I want to go to Spain as soon as possible, but I can see it happening.

 

This "oh it's better now than in the autumn" pre-judges that we would be in a position to open up in the autumn, which may not be the case, and if we end up self-isolating yet again then the flu and the other winter problems will also be lower as they were last year. What we are doing is sacrificing lives so that there can be a summer boost to the economy, on the hope that new devastating strains don't appear and utterly, completely, f*** up the entire world. It's gambling. So far Johnson has lost most of his gambles, bar one: Scientists got out vaccines. That was nothing to do with him, and everything else he did made a bad situation much worse. Electing a moron can get you killed. Fact. Arguments put forward by Tories that other non-right-wing governments are not making are made for financial reasons, not public well-being.

 

 

I wish I could share your optimism on masks. When I got off my bus home this afternoon, I was the only passenger (of about 20) wearing one.

 

I think this is also a point that is being missed, people assume everyone's behaviour is going to change come Monday.. I'd argue it's already been changed since June 21st and possibly before. I've noticed a change in tone from the media this week too- be interesting to see how this continues.

 

errr people who have health conditions and die are not as a result of a disease that isn't going away. The argument that you learn to live with it is a fake argument: this is not the Middle Ages where you don't have a choice and you either die or recover. We as a democratic society with modern science at our disposal have many alternatives at our disposal.

 

Choosing to let (at the the moment) 50 people die a day in order to start off a huge wave of infections is a choice, not an inevitability, and if I were the rest of the world I would ban people from the UK from entering my country until we see what the result will be. Not what I want, I want to go to Spain as soon as possible, but I can see it happening.

 

This "oh it's better now than in the autumn" pre-judges that we would be in a position to open up in the autumn, which may not be the case, and if we end up self-isolating yet again then the flu and the other winter problems will also be lower as they were last year. What we are doing is sacrificing lives so that there can be a summer boost to the economy, on the hope that new devastating strains don't appear and utterly, completely, f*** up the entire world. It's gambling. So far Johnson has lost most of his gambles, bar one: Scientists got out vaccines. That was nothing to do with him, and everything else he did made a bad situation much worse. Electing a moron can get you killed. Fact. Arguments put forward by Tories that other non-right-wing governments are not making are made for financial reasons, not public well-being.

 

So what do we do? Just keep restrictions on our daily lives forever? If we can't open up in the middle of summer then I'm not sure we're ever going to be able.

 

I completely agree the Government have messed up lots of times and as I've stated countless times before, I disagree with some of the policy come Monday.

 

View this post on Instagram

 

The BVG (Berlins equivalent to the TfL) is vaccinating the general public!

 

 

We finally have good stocks of the vax now and the availability has just exploded. Our company doctor has doses (company doctors are a big thing in Germany), this city is doing drop in clinics in under covered neighbourhoods (with Moderna and Janssen) and there’s a city sponsored drive through tomorrow at IKEA!!!

 

 

 

Vax roll out was always a marathon and not a sprint and it’s nice to see us catching up

View this post on Instagram

 

The BVG (Berlins equivalent to the TfL) is vaccinating the general public!

We finally have good stocks of the vax now and the availability has just exploded. Our company doctor has doses (company doctors are a big thing in Germany), this city is doing drop in clinics in under covered neighbourhoods (with Moderna and Janssen) and there’s a city sponsored drive through tomorrow at IKEA!!!

Vax roll out was always a marathon and not a sprint and it’s nice to see us catching up

 

You can get jabbed in some Primarks this weekend in the UK :lol: Problem is in the UK we've hit a bit of a roadblock now, think we need to judge the younger generations as there is no way getting through to some of the nutbars. I'd really like to see 16-18 year olds given the opportunity to take it.

You can get jabbed in some Primarks this weekend in the UK :lol: Problem is in the UK we've hit a bit of a roadblock now, think we need to judge the younger generations as there is no way getting through to some of the nutbars. I'd really like to see 16-18 year olds given the opportunity to take it.

It’s available from 12 up here but they’re reluctant to push it in under 18s. I’m with you on getting it in as many arms as we can, as long as it’s been released/approved by MHRA/EMA then get the jagged and safe!

 

 

Most of our walk ups are for 18+. I’d like to see the city break ranks with STiKO and just go for it and get the youth vaxxed. It’s 15-39 that has the high case load and is driving our increase AND has the lowest vax rate. Pace has slowed a little here but folks seem to be waiting for BioNTech over all others as they’re fully booked and there’s some Moderna available that’s juts not as widely spoken about (I’ve had that one) And I think it’s a victim of it’s lack of PR (although a lack of press noise for a vax is a good thing in my book)

 

 

 

We at least have the one shot too. Rates are still strong and the gov is still planning on having an offer for everyone by end of sept so we’re still on track for that at least

It’s available from 12 up here but they’re reluctant to push it in under 18s. I’m with you on getting it in as many arms as we can, as long as it’s been released/approved by MHRA/EMA then get the jagged and safe!

Most of our walk ups are for 18+. I’d like to see the city break ranks with STiKO and just go for it and get the youth vaxxed. It’s 15-39 that has the high case load and is driving our increase AND has the lowest vax rate. Pace has slowed a little here but folks seem to be waiting for BioNTech over all others as they’re fully booked and there’s some Moderna available that’s juts not as widely spoken about (I’ve had that one) And I think it’s a victim of it’s lack of PR (although a lack of press noise for a vax is a good thing in my book)

We at least have the one shot too. Rates are still strong and the gov is still planning on having an offer for everyone by end of sept so we’re still on track for that at least

 

I don't know where I stand with 11-15 year olds getting the vaccine from an ethical perspective. I suspect we will have to jab them to get higher immunity but certainly for 16-18 year olds we ask them to pay national insurance, taxes, wear masks if they're working in a shop.. so we treat them as adults but don't want to give them the same responsibility and I don't agree with that. I think the 18-29 take up in the UK is only about 55%, can see it getting higher but it's going to be a slog and going to take weeks/months.

errr people who have health conditions and die are not as a result of a disease that isn't going away. The argument that you learn to live with it is a fake argument: this is not the Middle Ages where you don't have a choice and you either die or recover. We as a democratic society with modern science at our disposal have many alternatives at our disposal.

 

Choosing to let (at the the moment) 50 people die a day in order to start off a huge wave of infections is a choice, not an inevitability, and if I were the rest of the world I would ban people from the UK from entering my country until we see what the result will be. Not what I want, I want to go to Spain as soon as possible, but I can see it happening.

 

This "oh it's better now than in the autumn" pre-judges that we would be in a position to open up in the autumn, which may not be the case, and if we end up self-isolating yet again then the flu and the other winter problems will also be lower as they were last year. What we are doing is sacrificing lives so that there can be a summer boost to the economy, on the hope that new devastating strains don't appear and utterly, completely, f*** up the entire world. It's gambling. So far Johnson has lost most of his gambles, bar one: Scientists got out vaccines. That was nothing to do with him, and everything else he did made a bad situation much worse. Electing a moron can get you killed. Fact. Arguments put forward by Tories that other non-right-wing governments are not making are made for financial reasons, not public well-being.

 

 

I couldn’t agree with you more. Johnson is a Moran. He and his government don’t have a clue. The thing is this doesn’t have to happen and it’s a choice as a result of very bad decisions. No other country is taking this reckless and dangerous approach. In addition, there is a new variant called the Beta variant (originating from South Africa) that is currently affecting France and this shows just how easy it is for new variants to develop. As a result, fully vaccinated people will still need to quarantine upon return from holidays in France. This is the only positive change in policy I’ve heard all week from the government.

 

I think they should open up vaccination to 12+ now. Multiple countries already have and the amount of first doses being administered daily has dropped off quite a bit. Although the rate at which second doses are being administered is promising. There should be quite a lot of second doses being done in August.

 

There are a lot of walk in venues opening this weekend across London. I do hope that a lot of people attend who haven't already been vaccinated.

 

Almost 4,000 people in hospital now in the UK. It looks like we could hit similar hospitalisation levels as the first and second waves in a month or so (~18-20,000).

 

I assume we might see cases drop by the end of the month/beginning of August when kids are on the summer holidays. Although it's crazy to think 1/95 people in England have had the virus in the last week. That'll increase further next week.

 

 

I think they should open up vaccination to 12+ now. Multiple countries already have and the amount of first doses being administered daily has dropped off quite a bit. Although the rate at which second doses are being administered is promising. There should be quite a lot of second doses being done in August.

 

There are a lot of walk in venues opening this weekend across London. I do hope that a lot of people attend who haven't already been vaccinated.

 

Almost 4,000 people in hospital now in the UK. It looks like we could hit similar hospitalisation levels as the first and second waves in a month or so (~18-20,000).

 

I assume we might see cases drop by the end of the month/beginning of August when kids are on the summer holidays. Although it's crazy to think 1/95 people in England have had the virus in the last week. That'll increase further next week.

 

But from an ethical perspective, covid is not a danger to children - there is more risk attached to taking the vaccine. Other countries are vaccinating 11+ because they did not have the same coverage in the older population, thankfully we have the coverage but it's not enough for any herd immunity. I don't know where I stand on the debate, I'm glad I don't have to make the choice.

 

I think T Boy hinted on it earlier, as it's too soon to tell, there is chance case numbers may drop, but that could be because people are just not testing. I don't think the kids being off will makr that much of a difference, but equally there is only a ceiling of how high the cases can go.

Yeah but that's the point I'm making - all the other respiratory virsues and covid with no community immunity. That is also a recipe for disaster. so you push the exit wave in to the autumn & winter. There will be a huge exit wave across Europe too. We've got about 3-4m adults that are unvaccinated and won't get vaccinated. Personally, I feel the Government should have invested in more local PHE strategy to encourage uptake ready for a summer wave. Cases are rising a lot because of the football.. we're definitely seeing the Euros effect in England right now

 

Yes, deaths are rising which is to be expected. Without wanting to sound too heartless, we don't report on the deaths of heart disease or cancer every day. Unless it gets in to 500+ numbers per day I don't think it's much use as an outlier. People are always going to be dying of covid, it's fixed in the community now.

 

I can't speak for other countries, but we're a couple of weeks ahead of most of Europe with vaccines and I suspect a lot of Europe will unlock restrictions, just with masks still mandated (which I am fully for and do feel it is silly of the Government to not mandate, but suspect most of the country will still wear a mask). I'm for the restrictions being lifted, I just disagree with how the Government are mitigating the risks associated with it as I will put good money on them changing their minds come September.

 

I think we’ll have to agree to disagree about whether it’s the right time to fully open up. I personally think it’s the wrong decision and

don’t see how any responsible government can justify going ahead at a time when case numbers are significantly rising as a result of the Delta variant. The argument that delaying until the Autumn will lead to a larger wave is hardly a justified reason to unlock now and it’s not based on facts but mere speculation. In fact, if we had delayed until the Autumn then we might be in a better place due to most adults being fully vaccinated but regardless of that, a more cautious approach is needed to ensure infections remain at a manageable level in the future.

 

As you rightfully point out, the football is highly likely to be a big factor in the increase in cases but once again this is the result of poor political judgment. At least other countries are being more sensible. In Japan, the Olympics are still going ahead but without any audience.

 

Respiratory diseases are common every winter and play a significant burden every year on the NHS so the last thing they need is to be dealing with a large surge in covid hospitalisations which looks increasingly likely due to the current approach. Up until 6-8 weeks ago, there were barely any deaths so the current situation could have been completely avoided if better decisions had been taken instead of the government playing with people’s lives and giving mixed messaging. Giving people the ‘choice’ and ‘personal responsibility’ over things like wearing a mask during a pandemic is crazy and causes confusion, conflict and more division. There are already lots of people not adhering to the rules and clarity is needed.

 

Unlocking now is dangerous, reckless and merely for short term gains by a government who has been highly incompetent right from the beginning of the pandemic. It’s a political decision but if you have high levels of infection in society then that’s hardly a sound footing for future prosperity and if it goes wrong then it will have significant repercussions not only for our country but also the world.

Edited July 16, 20214 yr by slowdown73

I think we’ll have to agree to disagree about whether it’s the right time to fully open up. I personally think it’s the wrong decision and

don’t see how any responsible government can justify going ahead at a time when case numbers are significantly rising as a result of the Delta variant. The argument that delaying until the Autumn will lead to a larger wave is hardly a justified reason to unlock now and it’s not based on facts but mere speculation. In fact, if we had delayed until the Autumn then we might be in a better place due to most adults being fully vaccinated but regardless of that, a more cautious approach is needed to ensure infections remain at a manageable level in the future.

 

As you rightfully point out, the football is highly likely to be a big factor in the increase in cases but once again this is the result of poor political judgment. At least other countries are being more sensible. In Japan, the Olympics are still going ahead but without any audience.

 

Respiratory diseases are common every winter and play a significant burden every year on the NHS so the last thing they need is to be dealing with a large surge in covid hospitalisations which looks increasingly likely due to the current approach. Up until 6-8 weeks ago, there were barely any deaths so the current situation could have been completely avoided if better decisions had been taken instead of the government playing with people’s lives and giving mixed messaging. Giving people the ‘choice’ and ‘personal responsibility’ over things like wearing a mask during a pandemic is crazy and causes confusion, conflict and more division. There are already lots of people not adhering to the rules and clarity is needed.

 

Unlocking now is dangerous, reckless and merely for short term gains by a government who has been highly incompetent right from the beginning of the pandemic. It’s a political decision but if you have high levels of infection in society then that’s hardly a sound footing for future prosperity and if it goes wrong then it will have significant repercussions not only for our country but also the world.

 

But what do we do? Tell people they can’t have social contacts and shut all restaurants and pubs? It’s just not viable. You can mitigate these factors by asking for proof of testing etc. But I’m not that convinced it would have that much of an effect. The Delta variant clearly spreads like wildfire, it’s barely taken hold of the rest of the world yet, it’s impossible to control this variant in the same way. I totally get the arguments but I’m just of the thought if we won’t open now, we won’t ever open and like you mention respiratory diseases in winter, the idea is that it lessens the effect in the winter this way.. whether that’s the case, that’s the unknown.

 

The football is effect isn’t from going to the stadium to watch the games. The football effect is from pubs and increased social contacts, I would suspect if the football was not on the social contact levels would be far lower.