There are a very long list of countries with national ID card who have had them for decades.

As a foreigner in Germany I have a residency title in the form of a biometric ID card. This is also the system the UK has already FYI as it is an EU wide initiative. In less than two weeks time I will become a German citizen and apply for a national ID card. Germany with 83 million people and a very well documented history of authoritarian dictatorship in the last century has had exactly ZERO of the issues listed above come to fruition. The data privacy in Germany even with the ID card is magnitudes higher than what it is today in the UK without them. What you got to fear, palantir and GCHQ can already track every nano second of your miserable existence, ain’t no one needing a digital id card for that. Plus the German database is more lucrative as the population is higher and it has not been compromised.

Another large EU country with National ID and a ropey history of authoritarian dictatorship is Italy.

While I do have my own reasons for disagreeing with mandatory digital ID I do find it interesting that people are suddenly so concerned about privacy, transactions being logged/monitored, etc. If you have a bank account or use any financial institution at all this is already happening to you. Anything you do is monitored and shared/reported if there's reason to do so. It's basically just another cashless society vs. cash is king but on a larger scale where only those that likely have something to hide are so up in arms about it. That said, I do think the whole thing is complete overreach and should be scrapped.

4 hours ago, Gezza said:

Well they managed to unite all the opposition parties on one thing so that's an...... achievement. Surely if you just said you must show a valid passport OR an ID card to work then would keep everyone happy? People can choose which they want. Less cost that way and covers those that don't have a passport or don't want an ID card. I think this is a wrong move and feels like a knee jerk reaction to Reform more than anything.

Let's not forget as recently as last year yvette cooper said that ID cards were not the approach and the labour party ruled them out during the election.

I doubt anyone smuggling people here illegally will worry and anyone employing them in the black market will be bothered either so it's rather pointless in my opinion.

Also if the concern is over them claiming benefits then as they won't be working that section won't need a card either.

Let's also not forget that several Reform figures have, in the past, supported some form of ID card. Their conversion is pure opportunism. The Lib Dems and Tories were both opposed to the last labour government's scheme. Therefore, it was hardly a surprise that the Coalition was very quick to scrap it.

I'm one of those who signed the petition. I'm aware that businesses already have ways of stalking you by simply having a bank account, phone etc. but I always do what I can to maintain my privacy.

I have no apps on my phone, I've never scanned a QR code and the only time I use the internet on my phone is to check the tube/train statuses. On my computer I clear my cookies after visiting each website. The only social media I use is Twitter and I only tweet about music. I use cash for my day to day purposes and utilise my bank branch which is fortunately still there.

I know not everyone goes to the same extent I do but I do think there's still many of us against technology being forced upon us. A couple of days ago I was in a queue at the shop with one manned till and every single person making a purchase was in that queue whilst a number of card only self checkouts were available and not being used.

35 minutes ago, My Random Music said:

I use cash for my day to day purposes and utilise my bank branch which is fortunately still there.

One of those. The surest way to ensure branches continue to go through cycles of closure programmes due to the operating costs of Margaret insisting she's 'keeping someone in a job' by getting £50 out at the counter every other day.

17 hours ago, Calum said:

While I do have my own reasons for disagreeing with mandatory digital ID I do find it interesting that people are suddenly so concerned about privacy, transactions being logged/monitored, etc. If you have a bank account or use any financial institution at all this is already happening to you. Anything you do is monitored and shared/reported if there's reason to do so. It's basically just another cashless society vs. cash is king but on a larger scale where only those that likely have something to hide are so up in arms about it. That said, I do think the whole thing is complete overreach and should be scrapped.

“Tesco will steal my data” who CARES that you bought 2 packets of chocolate digestives this week 😭

When my mum had very poor mental health during lockdown, she got rid of her phone and claimed she didn’t need it and she didn’t want the government knowing what she was doing and where she was going.

She used to stay in the house for 23 hours a day.

Thats the energy this has. Thankfully she’s back in grid despite the fact she actually goes out more.

Edited Saturday at 11:343 days by T Boy

The comms has been atrocious, as usual

8 hours ago, Liаm said:

“Tesco will steal my data” who CARES that you bought 2 packets of chocolate digestives this week 😭

It's not just knowing you once bought a packet of biscuits though. When I go to a restaurant everybody in that restaurant can clearly seeing what I'm having for my dinner and I'm fine with that. However if everybody in that restaurant suddenly knew what I'd be having for my dinner at home every day I wouldn't be comfortable with that. Quite frankly what I do in the privacy of my own home whether it's what I'm having for dinner or something else is nobody else's business.

Unless you buy a new dinner from a supermarket every single day, how on Earth would they ever be able to know what you’re eating at home?

I buy mostly ingredients and vegetables from the supermarket and I’m honestly not worried about anyone speculating about what I’m eating.

16 minutes ago, T Boy said:

Unless you buy a new dinner from a supermarket every single day, how on Earth would they ever be able to know what you’re eating at home?

I buy mostly ingredients and vegetables from the supermarket and I’m honestly not worried about anyone speculating about what I’m eating.

OK other shoppers in the supermarket can see what's in my trolley but I wouldn't want them to know what I buy every time I go to the shop. The point is my day to day activities aren't a secret but I like my privacy and don't want a record of what my day to day activities are.

But what you cook for yourself surely is private no matter what? They’re not going to be asking for ID before you use the oven?

43 minutes ago, T Boy said:

But what you cook for yourself surely is private no matter what? They’re not going to be asking for ID before you use the oven?

The original comment I responded to was "who CARES that you bought 2 packets of chocolate digestives this week" which in turn was a response to a comment that included "only those that likely have something to hide are so up in arms about it".

My point is that buying a packet of biscuits is nothing to hide but I wouldn't want a permanent record of me buying a packet of biscuits because what I buy is nobody else's business.

Where's it been implied there's ever going to be a permanent record of every purchase made in a shop linked to an individual? You're not going to be asked to present ID to do your weekly shop ffs. If you're signed up to any loyalty scheme supermarkets can already track your purchases down to exactly what you're buying and track trends, behaviour, tastes, etc. Literally nobody is going to be sitting in a government office somewhere saying 'f***ing hell this guy is spending way too much on digestives, let's get him'.

But I'll take the bus to the next stop with you... you're asked to present your digital ID at a supermarket because you're buying an age-restricted item in your weekly shop. You scan it. The only information likely to be passed from the supermarket is that you've used it to purchase said item, or that your digital ID has been used at x supermarket. Exactly the same way bank account transactions work. Banks don't see any record of what you're buying, only the merchant and location. If you're challenged in a supermarket now for buying age-restricted items and are asked to present ID you're handing over your full name, date of birth, place of birth, address, etc to a stranger doing a minimum wage job who couldn't give a shit who you are, where you live or what you're doing. Zero privacy concerns there. Yet you're worried about someone knowing you're about to tuck into a family pack of digestives.

I see the petition to not have ID cards has reached 2 million- not sure what the record is for a petition signing or if we're near it yet.

Also not sure how he's going to explain the expense of (an estimated) 1 billion to set up and £100 million to administer yearly (according to the Blair institute) with the oft repeated mantra that there's a black hole in the finance's. Nor the fact that it will be "free" which of course is a lie because it will be paid for by the tax payer.

The larger point is that I imagine that we will have to renew the ID card at intervals (I assume similar to a passport- at least every 10 years) and there will (Probably) come a point when we will have to pay for the card directly as well, not to mention that by the time we have to renew there might be other things we can add to the card because "it's handy"- its the potential slow creep that I find alarming. I get why some aren't overly bothered by the concept but imagine an ever more powerful card in the future in the hands of a government that you really don't like and wants to increasingly control criticism (and that's not too far a stretch when you see what's happening in America at the moment). I think it it wiser to strive toward the state being there to serve the liberties of the individuals rather than to constrain them.

Plus of course that none of the reasons so far advanced as to why we should have them are not already covered by a passport or a driver's licence which makes it a hard sell, and more importantly, from a political point view for Labour, is highly doubtful that it will win any voters back from Reform. Of course the rather authoritarian way that this has been landed on us all doesn't help, at the current rate you have to imagine Farage is enormously happy with the way this week has gone which can't be a good thing for most of us!

19 minutes ago, Calum said:

Where's it been implied there's ever going to be a permanent record of every purchase made in a shop linked to an individual? You're not going to be asked to present ID to do your weekly shop ffs. If you're signed up to any loyalty scheme supermarkets can already track your purchases down to exactly what you're buying and track trends, behaviour, tastes, etc. Literally nobody is going to be sitting in a government office somewhere saying 'f***ing hell this guy is spending way too much on digestives, let's get him'.

But I'll take the bus to the next stop with you... you're asked to present your digital ID at a supermarket because you're buying an age-restricted item in your weekly shop. You scan it. The only information likely to be passed from the supermarket is that you've used it to purchase said item, or that your digital ID has been used at x supermarket. Exactly the same way bank account transactions work. Banks don't see any record of what you're buying, only the merchant and location. If you're challenged in a supermarket now for buying age-restricted items and are asked to present ID you're handing over your full name, date of birth, place of birth, address, etc to a stranger doing a minimum wage job who couldn't give a shit who you are, where you live or what you're doing. Zero privacy concerns there. Yet you're worried about someone knowing you're about to tuck into a family pack of digestives.

I'm not signed up to any loyalty schemes for that very reason. I did experience having to show ID when purchasing beer when I was younger but now I'm well into my 40s so in the unlikely event that will happen again I will take my custom somewhere else. By paying in cash the banks don't even see where I'm spending my money.

28 minutes ago, Gezza said:

I see the petition to not have ID cards has reached 2 million- not sure what the record is for a petition signing or if we're near it yet.

Also not sure how he's going to explain the expense of (an estimated) 1 billion to set up and £100 million to administer yearly (according to the Blair institute) with the oft repeated mantra that there's a black hole in the finance's. Nor the fact that it will be "free" which of course is a lie because it will be paid for by the tax payer.

The larger point is that I imagine that we will have to renew the ID card at intervals (I assume similar to a passport- at least every 10 years) and there will (Probably) come a point when we will have to pay for the card directly as well, not to mention that by the time we have to renew there might be other things we can add to the card because "it's handy"- its the potential slow creep that I find alarming. I get why some aren't overly bothered by the concept but imagine an ever more powerful card in the future in the hands of a government that you really don't like and wants to increasingly control criticism (and that's not too far a stretch when you see what's happening in America at the moment). I think it it wiser to strive toward the state being there to serve the liberties of the individuals rather than to constrain them.

Plus of course that none of the reasons so far advanced as to why we should have them are not already covered by a passport or a driver's licence which makes it a hard sell, and more importantly, from a political point view for Labour, is highly doubtful that it will win any voters back from Reform. Of course the rather authoritarian way that this has been landed on us all doesn't help, at the current rate you have to imagine Farage is enormously happy with the way this week has gone which can't be a good thing for most of us!

The record for this parliament is the 'call a general election' one that was circulated by certainly GB News amongst other right-wing rags in October/November last year, that got 3 million, was a bit ludicrous given the timing and that Labour hadn't even done anything yet so it just came across as a sore loser-y petition, though it may have been one of the first signs of discontent with this government. Historically, the record is 'Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU' from the 2017-19 parliament with 6 million and a 2nd referendum one from 2015-17 with 4. They didn't see as high numbers in the 2019-24 government which is curious given how much of a fucking disaster that one was, and so in comparison the recent attention on them feeds into my 'media full guns blazing against the Starmer admin' theory where positive sentiment is never allowed to set in and ordinary people using their feeds like normal are drawn into the GB News/Reform-esque ecosystem and algorithm where they promote petitions like these, unpopular mistakes and missteps like these are seized upon and blown up out of all proportion. Though considering I remember many good and worthy petitions being roundly ignored by the Johnson/Sunak governments, quite gratifying to see the ones directed against the Labour government get similarly ignored.

That said, despite that paragraph, this is one instance where I'm hoping they do see the reaction and back down. It's quite clear the concept isn't ready yet, it and while digitising this seems like a no brainer eventually, you have to be somewhat sensitive to the views of the population and prove that it will allow people to keep their privacy and isn't connected to some vast government database that can track people (entirely possible to set up databases where database admins and controllers have no access to the individual data of users as it's all hashed, that's how passwords and passkeys are always stored and if you build it right, any data can be client-side encrypted). Can't see it ever costing anyone money either honestly, that would somewhat defeat the concept if it's digitally based.

Though you are completely right in that last paragraph, this is YET AGAIN something that Labour have announced that because of the nuances of the policy, their horrible comms and said hostile media environment, will win them very few supporters from those who support the idea (if you believe polling on ID cards, a majority of Britons), because they don't care, but will radicalise people on the other side of the issue against them. Just as Farage had started off the week with a relatively weak time as well with the overreach of his 'abolish ILR' disaster.

Why couldn't Labour have had some message discipline for once and hammered on Farage's immigration cruelties going into their conference (while not perfect it's better than this), and not summoned the long-dead spirit of Tony Blair to launch possibly the most feared thing that people who fear 'authoritarian Labour' think they will always do?

1 hour ago, My Random Music said:

I'm not signed up to any loyalty schemes for that very reason. I did experience having to show ID when purchasing beer when I was younger but now I'm well into my 40s so in the unlikely event that will happen again I will take my custom somewhere else. By paying in cash the banks don't even see where I'm spending my money.

You really do seem very worried about the fact peolle know where and what you buy. Do you own a bunker?

1 hour ago, Gezza said:

I see the petition to not have ID cards has reached 2 million- not sure what the record is for a petition signing or if we're near it yet.

Also not sure how he's going to explain the expense of (an estimated) 1 billion to set up and £100 million to administer yearly (according to the Blair institute) with the oft repeated mantra that there's a black hole in the finance's. Nor the fact that it will be "free" which of course is a lie because it will be paid for by the tax payer.

The larger point is that I imagine that we will have to renew the ID card at intervals (I assume similar to a passport- at least every 10 years) and there will (Probably) come a point when we will have to pay for the card directly as well, not to mention that by the time we have to renew there might be other things we can add to the card because "it's handy"- its the potential slow creep that I find alarming. I get why some aren't overly bothered by the concept but imagine an ever more powerful card in the future in the hands of a government that you really don't like and wants to increasingly control criticism (and that's not too far a stretch when you see what's happening in America at the moment). I think it it wiser to strive toward the state being there to serve the liberties of the individuals rather than to constrain them.

Plus of course that none of the reasons so far advanced as to why we should have them are not already covered by a passport or a driver's licence which makes it a hard sell, and more importantly, from a political point view for Labour, is highly doubtful that it will win any voters back from Reform. Of course the rather authoritarian way that this has been landed on us all doesn't help, at the current rate you have to imagine Farage is enormously happy with the way this week has gone which can't be a good thing for most of us!

Loads of other countries have them and they work fine.

There's this whole civil rights yah yah yah, which I get to a degree but literally the people making these arguments are daft. There are literal CCTV cameras, which are privately owned and capture all our every day movements and we have people not wanting to sign up for a Clubcard. When the reality is our data is being harvested every day when we do/don't know about it, I suspect it will be projected to save long term administrative costs and cut needless government bureaucy. My two issues with any national ID card would be the fact you have to show it if asked and also which company the platform is contracted to.

Imagine thinking so much of yourself that you think the entire country and government is just dying to know that you love a microwave spag Bol from Tesco for yer tea

Everyone harping on about not wanted to be tracked by the government has forgotten one crucial thing, they’re f***ing boring. Ain’t no one interested in what you are doing. It’s a f***ing Id card, not a gps tracking chip. It’s to prove your right to work, identity and/or age and and when required under existing law. Not everyone can drive or has a passport, and the Tory c**ts made it illegal to vote without id so the smart plan is to give everyone something that will allow all to participate in democracy.