Liz Truss was once a republican. She has been PM for a couple days and...

RIP royalist or not nobody can deny that she dedicated her life to “duty” right up to the end.

I'm far from being a royalist, I find the whole institution horrendous but I don't have anything against the Queen as a person and the fact is an elderly woman passed away in a really quite painful way, and she has been an essential part of our culture and heritage.

 

Some of the stuff I'm seeing people posting is really quite sickening, especially because it's gonna be really quite raw for a lot of people right now.

 

I'm really interested to see if this is the turning point where the public perception of the Monarchy cracks and becomes less romanticised and lauded.

I'm far from being a royalist, I find the whole institution horrendous but I don't have anything against the Queen as a person and the fact is an elderly woman passed away in a really quite painful way, and she has been an essential part of our culture and heritage.

 

Some of the stuff I'm seeing people posting is really quite sickening, especially because it's gonna be really quite raw for a lot of people right now.

 

I'm really interested to see if this is the turning point where the public perception of the Monarchy cracks and becomes less romanticised and lauded.

 

Thanks for posting this here because I don't feel like enraging those who don't wish to participate in debates about it in the Lounge thread.

 

I did have things against her. She was broadly a benevolent person from her public image and better than many contemporaries would be, probably better than I expect Charles to be, but certainly had moments that would rival any of the evil billionaires like Bezos and Musk throughout her life. (one example)

 

It really is quite insane of us as a country that people are genuinely feeling down, are talking about days of national mourning (no healthy society stops for days to mourn anyone) and even wish to continue the monarchy. Joking about it is fine, unlike most celebrities she represented an institution, not so much a person really. Absolutely I encourage lack of deference to traditions and institutions, which is what jokes about her death represent.

 

At its core, she was a very rich landowner with power over us, and her successor will be a rich landowner with power over us (if not de facto political power, she certainly had perceptive power and soft power). She was also the head of state for so much of our colonial legacy and her passing severes a link to the past with that. Which will be good for us in the long run, you can trace a direct line from the Britain of 1952 being so powerful across the world to our ineffectual exceptionalism of the 2010s (Brexit etc).

 

I think we definitely might see a quick decline in approval of the monarchy once her passing is dealt with, and exacerbating that with excessive coverage is certainly one way to do that.

Also, there is the underlying fact that she never once acknowledged being gay is even a thing, let alone a good thing. That is one big grievance I've always had against her.

Also, there is the underlying fact that she never once acknowledged being gay is even a thing, let alone a good thing. That is one big grievance I've always had against her.

Although it’s few and far between…

 

(In 2003, she vowed to increase) "equality and social justice by bringing forward legislation on the registration of civil partnerships between same sex couples."

 

In 2013 she also gave royal assent to the Marriage Bill.

 

And 2017: “My government will make further progress to tackle the gender pay gap and discrimination against people on the basis of their race, faith, gender, disability, or sexual orientation”

 

Her saying “sexual orientation” in terms of the tackling discrimination is surely an acknowledgement, even if she never explicitly expressed support. I think it would be fair to say that the Queen was impartial on so many issues though.

 

 

I think this idea that we as a nation are going to hurdle towards Republicanism is misguided. That is not to say that it won't happen in the future, but I would doubt it would happen in most of our lifetimes. As much as people dislike the Monarchy and the elitism, if you replace that with a Republican you're just shovelling shit down a different hole - the idea than someone other than the elite, powerful and rich would be president is a pipe dream imo.

Wow, surprised a little at the spiciness of that take, Iz!

 

I'm just watching from the sidelines. The English psyche is fascinating in moments like this, in terms of respect etc.

 

I'm reminded of the saying about respect - whether it means deference or treating someone like an equal.

If I had met the queen, I would certainly have treated her respectfully, kindly and politely, but I would not have bowed and scraped or believed that she was better than me.

Wow, surprised a little at the spiciness of that take, Iz!

 

I'm just watching from the sidelines. The English psyche is fascinating in moments like this, in terms of respect etc.

 

I'm reminded of the saying about respect - whether it means deference or treating someone like an equal.

If I had met the queen, I would certainly have treated her respectfully, kindly and politely, but I would not have bowed and scraped or believed that she was better than me.

 

It's in part a reaction to the ceaseless, suffocating deference that I don't miss being physically around, and in part hanging around leftist and non-traditional communities.

 

I agree, I would of course have been respectful and polite had I ever met her, as I imagine rival world leaders would do. But most certainly not deferential.

 

I can't help myself really, there's something that seems so fundamentally wrong to me about demanding respect towards someone because they're a 'better'. Plus the whole 'don't speak ill of the dead' thing that I routinely rail against whenever the dead figure is a political or public one because at that point it's nonsense designed to tell people to shut up and 'be civil, know your place, we won't stand for any of this talk about changing the system'.

 

And that point about the British psyche is well-made, it has so many numerous issues, particularly with issues like this that involve the old nobility, the disco citizens as it were, that I hope we can break out from. We can't be an equal society until that hierarchy is flattened, and so much of our current political problems stem from that not happening and indeed the politicians working to make the hierarchy more rigid.

I think this idea that we as a nation are going to hurdle towards Republicanism is misguided. That is not to say that it won't happen in the future, but I would doubt it would happen in most of our lifetimes. As much as people dislike the Monarchy and the elitism, if you replace that with a Republican you're just shovelling shit down a different hole - the idea than someone other than the elite, powerful and rich would be president is a pipe dream imo.

 

A ceremonial Head Of State with a deliberately long election term works in several European countries - the ideal would be a well-respected public figure or academic approaching retirement, who runs as an independent or lightly associated political figure and does the rubber stamping. Ireland and Germany's systems are great examples. You get to save on the pomp and circumstance, you get to ignore the 'born to rule' problem, the HoS still acts as an uncontroversial ideal to work towards with little division, and short a revolution, the royal family personally will still be very rich people who own a lot of land.

 

also we need to take gentleman's agreements out of politics as a rule, codify them with standards and rules for political figures (like, say, a constitution!). The Royal Family's existence within our politics is a huge mess of gentleman's agreements right now. Would Charles ever act out of turn? I doubt it, but that our system allows for it is wrong.

Absolutely agree with everything Izzy has said. I have found it difficult to voice my thoughts online and offline due to the 'respect' (essentially a blanket statement used for anything that isn't absolute adoration) expected — despite the Queen and the monarchy being controversial figures.

 

I think this idea that we as a nation are going to hurdle towards Republicanism is misguided. That is not to say that it won't happen in the future, but I would doubt it would happen in most of our lifetimes. As much as people dislike the Monarchy and the elitism, if you replace that with a Republican you're just shovelling shit down a different hole - the idea than someone other than the elite, powerful and rich would be president is a pipe dream imo.

 

I don't think we are heading towards Republicanism right now. In our lifetime? It doesn't seem out of the question. I do feel like the last decade has proven that things can change massively and quickly. We'll just have to see how popular Charles is and which direction we head in politically as a democracy over the next few decades.

I think that we can't rule out anything in these uncertain times - Brexit, Trump, covid, Russia/Ukraine and not to mention the likely break up of the UK. Especially since with climate destruction, the concept of having a royal family will become less and less relevant.

 

Although the concept of a Royal family is something I disagree with in theory, as Rooney says the wealthy and powerful will always rule the roost. At least the Royal Family have some semblance of standards to abide to unlike the likes of Johnson, Truss and are disgusting over powerful media.

 

I think that Charles as King will be interesting - he has made some idiotic controversial statements but does seem to be correct on many issues - including the environment and he let his feelings known about the Rwanda scheme. I can see a massive clash between him and the Tory establishment very soon.

Also with Iz on this. Couldn’t really give less of a shit if I tried. I’m not a republican or a royalist, I’m generally ambivalent about it but I am so glad to be out of the country right now. I really can’t stand this performative shite. Like it’s sad and a major event in global history (but as a millennial already had more than enough of those thanks) but it doesn’t really impact me directly, she’s not my gran. I didn’t know her. She’s just part of the wild state structure we have from being part of a near 1500 year old monarchy and all the absolute insanity and pomp and circumstance and weird BS that comes with that.

 

People cancelling holidays…like get a grip of yourself

Yeah agreed with Iz, Silas etc. here - was very hesitant to post my opinion because I know how it can be perceived as insensitive, and whilst I am certainly not celebrating her death by any means - I simply do not care, sorry. She didn't have any impact on my life and I agree that there is a whole lot of performative takes on Social Media right now, sharing the most inane drivel as if it actually means anything and these people are the same who don't speak up for important issues such as BLM, Trans issues, Cost of living etc. but yes, a 96 year old woman dying is the issue to feel strongly about.

Absolutely agree with everything Izzy has said. I have found it difficult to voice my thoughts online and offline due to the 'respect' (essentially a blanket statement used for anything that isn't absolute adoration)

I don't think we are heading towards Republicanism right now. In our lifetime? It doesn't seem out of the question. I do feel like the last decade has proven that things can change massively and quickly. We'll just have to see how popular Charles is and which direction we head in politically as a democracy over the next few decades.

 

Just don't see it. There is no appettie for it in the United Kingdom (heck, look at Scotland's view on if they went indepenent as a country too) and it would take a lot of time for it to grow. Not to say it is out of the question, but even the other head's of state that Iz has suggested, they are still wealthy, educated and privelidged people, it's just less in your face. I think people often forget the Queen was not that popular in the 90s, I'm sure Charles won't be popular as the Queen, but I also feel that experiences the Firm may have got wrong with Charles, they may have got right with William.

Although William also shat the bed with the whole cheating thing

Although William also shat the bed with the whole cheating thing

 

Eh??

I agree with what's been said more eloquently before me – personally I feel quite detached from what appears to be the nation's general mood at the moment. Of course I have sympathy for people who do feel grief at the moment but I'm not going to mourn or put my life on hold for someone I never met. Also I wonder when we'll ever be allowed to call out the Queen's role in Britain's colonial legacy – are we now expected to be "respectful" to her forever?

To borrow the words of one of my friends, it is actually a privilege to be able to mourn the Queen's passing. For so many people around the world and even in the UK, she was the figurehead for a regime that caused immense irreversible damage to its colonies and then stood by as they struggled, and if anything should be mourned it is that. I don't want to police how anyone feels, but due to the wall-to-wall coverage of the Queen's death, important issues like the cost of living crisis and the murder of Chris Kaba are being totally and unjustly ignored. That – and the vast amounts of money we're about to spend on a funeral, a coronation, changing things from "queen" to "king", all in the middle of an economic crisis – just doesn't sit right with me.

 

Regarding republicanism - I do think there's an appetite. Whether or not it will actually happen is a different question, but I've seen a lot of pro-republic stuff on social media over the past day. Echo chambers are a thing obviously so I'm not gonna pretend that represents everyone my age, but I can see support growing as younger generations grow up without Elizabeth as that symbol that has held the monarchy together. By the time people born in 2022 make up the government, who knows?

I've been a republican since I was about eleven but in the fifty years since then support for republicanism has remained at around 15% with the occasional increase or decrease.

 

In recent years at least, I think the Queen herself has been a factor in the relatively low support for abolishing the monarchy. Charles is unlikely ever to be anywhere near as popular. It was interesting to note the mood in school today. It's only one school (and in Brighton & Hove) but it didn't feel any different from a normal Friday. There was a tribute to the late Queen in form time (which was largely treated with respect) followed by a minute's silence (dutifully observed) but, beyond that, the general attitude seemed to be simple indifference.

^Mine was similar, I barely heard a lot mention it actually outside of the standard all-staff email!

 

I'm honestly more interested to see what happens now. It feels like a very big turning point in history. The Queen seemed the one figure keeping the view of the monarchy (and in some places, the commonwealth) together, Charles will certainly be nowhere near as popular and indeed, he's outspoken and made his stance clear on many issues that the Queen never even breached, he'll be very divisive both here and worldwide (the elite in the US would hate him!) and I think dissent for the system will grow, there have been echoes of this outside of the UK from the commonwealth already.

 

In terms of how I feel, the only thing I'm sad about is she did seem the one person in the world even that everyone could agree was a respectable figure despite views on the monarchy, now that's gone, it will give way to more division which is always just nasty. Otherwise, it's how I'd feel towards any 95-year-old woman I didn't know dying - it's sad, I'm sorry for her family, but it doesn't affect me much, as much as I can acknowledge that she was a big part of British culture.