Not possible in a country with as weak a democracy as the UK with its brainwashing right wing government supporting media.

 

 

It is possible if they had the right policies and leader. Starmer's still not PM material. It'll take the leader after him, maybe a woman, to defeat the Tories.

It is possible if they had the right policies and leader. Starmer's still not PM material. It'll take the leader after him, maybe a woman, to defeat the Tories.

Starmer is far more suited for the job of PM than the blob of flesh currently in Downing Street. At least Starmer can be bothered to make sure he has some idea what he is talking about and avoids telling blatant lies.

On the plus side,as an EU in the UK, wonder if we will jump to the front of the queue for being hired! (The irony)

People who have read the summary say it seems okay.

 

The document is 1,200 pages long. The summaries I've seen from news websites are less than a page long. A proper summary would be dozens of pages long. We won't get a proper summary for many weeks/months until the entire document has been combed through. You can't scrutinise a 1,200 page document properly in mere days.

The biggest annoyance on my twitter feed is the loss of the Erasmus scheme with Europe, must highlight how the deal isn’t as bad as people though!

 

Maybe the financial services issue will be an issue for Britain!

Edited December 27, 20205 yr by Christmasteve201

The biggest annoyance on my twitter feed is the loss of the Erasmus scheme with Europe, must highlight how the deal isn’t as bad as people though!

 

And yes its not certain that Erasmus or its replacement will be taking place any time soon anyway. Even by this summer, the virus may have mutated beyond the vaccine who knows!

NI is thankfully protected by the Irish government supporting us, maybe that should happen on more issues 🤔!

 

If C19 continues to mutate it normally ends up being less and less dangerous as what happened in 1919 with Spanish flu - it basically disappeared due to a lot becoming immune and mutating so much it became the common flu.

The biggest annoyance on my twitter feed is the loss of the Erasmus scheme with Europe, must highlight how the deal isn’t as bad as people though!

 

Maybe the financial services issue will be an issue for Britain!

You don't need to read the document to find out ab out Erasmus - Johnson announced it himself. It also has an immediate impact on a lot of young people who are likely to make their feelings known. Of course, a cynic might think that the Erasmus issue will distract attention from a load of other horrors hidden somewhere in the document.

You don't need to read the document to find out ab out Erasmus - Johnson announced it himself. It also has an immediate impact on a lot of young people who are likely to make their feelings known. Of course, a cynic might think that the Erasmus issue will distract attention from a load of other horrors hidden somewhere in the document.

 

 

It's being replaced by the Turing scheme, an even better one which offers study at many universities worldwide. Why do people not want change if it's going to be for the better with a new scheme?

It's being replaced by the Turing scheme, an even better one which offers study at many universities worldwide. Why do people not want change if it's going to be for the better with a new scheme?

 

What makes it better?

It's being replaced by the Turing scheme, an even better one which offers study at many universities worldwide. Why do people not want change if it's going to be for the better with a new scheme?

 

Where are the details for this scheme? If there aren't any yet, how can it be better?

What makes it better?

johnson&johnson saying so without any proof or details whatsoever. that's more than enough :)

What makes it better?

 

Official UK Gov says so and they're honour-bound not to LIE

It's being replaced by the Turing scheme, an even better one which offers study at many universities worldwide. Why do people not want change if it's going to be for the better with a new scheme?

 

Give me strength!!! STOP TROLLING!!! You can be a fan of a popstar, NOT A BLIND FOLLOWER OF A POLITICIAN!!! That just creates oh, what's that? DICTATORS!

The problem for Labour is that they have to win a coalition to win the next election and voting against or abstaining would surely jeopardise that. So it’s easy for the smaller parties with a smaller coalition to say they should abstain.

 

Same point applies for the last election coalition against the tories - the smaller parties were just pro Eu whereas Labour couldn’t stand for that. At the end of the day Labour are the largest anti Tory party so the liberals should have understood that but their views came first.

 

There is a lot of truth in this. Labour are in a lose-lose position really - sure they can abstain on the vote, but the Tories can spin it and say Labour don't want Brexit. Before Labour can do anything, they need to win their core support back in the heartlands - that at least stops the Tories from getting another 80+ majority.

 

The main thing now is just getting Brexit done and moving on. It's happened, it's shit but still moaning about the result 4.5 years on is not going to get the Tories out of power.

The hardest part for Labour to swallow is that they didn’t create the mess but as was said about will be implicit with it no matter what.

I've gone back and forth on the 'what Labour should do' argument, which shouldn't be taking up as much discourse as it is but is there through unfortunate mixed messaging from the party over the last few years, even though trying to find a compromise was probably the most sensible thing to do considering this entire question is a binary that will upset a lot of people no matter which option is taken.

 

I'd prefer if Starmer gives the PLP a free vote, allowing Labour MPs in Remain constituencies to please their constituents, avoids the 'your Party voted for this deal', if the ERG do go against it then Starmer achieves his aim of using the votes that do vote for Brexit a free deal (very unlikely that ERG would have enough numbers if ~half of Labour were voting for it).

 

An acceptable option though, and what I think is Starmer's calculation, would be unfortunately voting for it as 'your Party voted for this deal' when it goes tits up is a line far preferable to 'Labour still against the willuvthapeople', and in the event of a disastrous outcome, there's an achievable way to argue that as a Tory deal and a Tory premiership and the threat of Tory ERG cranks helped cause the worst options, Labour can still look much better.

I've gone back and forth on the 'what Labour should do' argument, which shouldn't be taking up as much discourse as it is but is there through unfortunate mixed messaging from the party over the last few years, even though trying to find a compromise was probably the most sensible thing to do considering this entire question is a binary that will upset a lot of people no matter which option is taken.

 

I'd prefer if Starmer gives the PLP a free vote, allowing Labour MPs in Remain constituencies to please their constituents, avoids the 'your Party voted for this deal', if the ERG do go against it then Starmer achieves his aim of using the votes that do vote for Brexit a free deal (very unlikely that ERG would have enough numbers if ~half of Labour were voting for it).

 

An acceptable option though, and what I think is Starmer's calculation, would be unfortunately voting for it as 'your Party voted for this deal' when it goes tits up is a line far preferable to 'Labour still against the willuvthapeople', and in the event of a disastrous outcome, there's an achievable way to argue that as a Tory deal and a Tory premiership and the threat of Tory ERG cranks helped cause the worst options, Labour can still look much better.

If Labour abstain and other opposition parties vote against, it would still need well over 100 Tories to rebel for the government to be defeated.

I think with an abstention, even if it's in slight danger (say, 60-80 MPs, I do reckon it's more likely to be sub-40 but there's a risk) it'll look bad because people always think to interrogate Labour for their views and not the horribly awful far-right nutjobs in the Conservative Party for theirs. Also: Starmer's weakness on Brexit is his old Remain position, and his track record seems to be to go hard against that which he was previously perceived to be weak on to dispel people's old ideas of him.

 

I am a little concerned with the deal not meeting Starmer's criteria and yet he still votes for it, that's true. But it's something that's far less likely to stick than 'Labour put deal's success in jeopardy'.

 

(not that I'm exactly fine with this by the way, but calculatively it makes sense)

I think with an abstention, even if it's in slight danger (say, 60-80 MPs, I do reckon it's more likely to be sub-40 but there's a risk) it'll look bad because people always think to interrogate Labour for their views and not the horribly awful far-right nutjobs in the Conservative Party for theirs. Also: Starmer's weakness on Brexit is his old Remain position, and his track record seems to be to go hard against that which he was previously perceived to be weak on to dispel people's old ideas of him.

 

I am a little concerned with the deal not meeting Starmer's criteria and yet he still votes for it, that's true. But it's something that's far less likely to stick than 'Labour put deal's success in jeopardy'.

 

(not that I'm exactly fine with this by the way, but calculatively it makes sense)

 

I agree with the majority of this as well. While either an abstain or a free-choice seems the best, at the end of the day I feel that as a country and a liberal-left we have to move on in the short term. No matter how much we want it, we are not going to be part of the EU for a long time. The best thing to do imo is put the idea to bed for the next 10 years and move forward. I think Starmer must also want to show decisive leadership (which is one thing Corbyn was criticised for by the general public, and quite rightly). And also to put the issue to bed and win back the heartlands. Surely most people who voted Remain will not vote for UKIP or the Tories, but the core support might still. The issue is still very raw and will be in 2024 too, I feel that lots of Labour-Brexit supporters will be wary of voting for Labour, as the Tories will spin it and say they will make sure we re-join the EU if they vote for Labour.

 

Not ideal anyway we look at it, for the short to medium term, I think looking holistically it is the better thing to do. It looks from a top level the trade deal we got was probably the best we could possibly get.