There was a black president for 8 years, still nothing changed. It's not as simple as "get rid of Trump" or even get rid of the Republicans, whilst of course Trump and the Republicans being in power doesn't help and he is the absolute worst, it is not gonna change decades, well hundreds of years of attitudes, and the same timeframe filled with pain, loss and oppression for the black people who have truly had enough. There needs to be systematic change, there's deeply ingrained atttudes that shouldn't be there but they're not gonna change overnight with peaceful protests that are going to achieve absolutely nothing.

 

I am so so angry viewing all of the injustice and depravity from these so-called "heroes" from across the pond, I can't begin to imagine how it must feel for the people atually living it. It's certainly not my fight to shape but it is my fight to get involved in and use my voice at the very least.

 

This is the most important point that is lost on some — it is not my place, as a white person, to ignore what is being said to me and tell black people how to fight police brutality, white supremacy, and systemic racism. All of those injustices have prospered regardless of who is in power, and it's going to take a lot more than kneeling and voting in November for the system, and for society, to be fixed.

 

We have seen countless attempts in just the past week of people trying to protest peacefully — and then the police escalate violence — on film. Imagine what they do when the cameras aren't rolling?

 

@1267025377857241089

Edited May 31, 20205 yr by blacksquare

This is such an awful thing to witness, I am across the Atlantic in the UK and utterly horrified by what I am seeing. There are major issues on both sides but the police incidents really upset me. Rioters are wrong to be burning cars, shops etc and those looting are just despicable there is simply NO excuse ever to be doing that it is selfish and does nothing whatsoever to help the cause.

 

The police though and their violence, unprovoked attacking, that awful video with the old man and the cane, running over crowds is just totally utterly horrifying. Their jobs is to de-escalate and to bring peace not to escalate the way I am seeing. I feel so so so angry with them I can't even begin to imagine what people living there must feel, the American police force seems a lot more corrupt than the British police force for sure. I have a lot of respect for police officers here but I would struggle massively to have any respect for them if I saw what is happening out there happening now. I know it's not all officers either as seen by the one in that video of the old man rushing over to help him, unfortunately rotten apples in the force damage it as a whole as there is a 'gang' mentality to 'protect their own' which to be fair is in pretty much every thing, but it simply cannot be in the legal or military system in any way whatsoever.

 

Utterly devastating I feel so much for American people right now.

I've got involved in a peaceful protest today as well as donating a small sum to black lives matter. For me, as a white person, I so desperately want to help with this without coming across patronising or condescening. The videos I'm seeing absolutely break my heart and I want to use my privilege to do good where I can.

 

I agree with blacksquare, I really don't think it's our job as white people to judge or to decide how people go about protesting. There is so much hurt there and sometimes drastic action is needed, I am not one to judge. I think instead of using your privilege to judge, some of us on here and anywhere really should be using it spread awareness, show solidarity and do good. This judgemental attitude against the protests does what exactly?? It just incites hate even further, whether that is the intention or not. If you had a family member or someone you loved die, imagine someone else telling you how to react in that scenario.

 

I try not to post in here too much as I don't think I articulate myself that well sometimes :lol: I just couldn't keep silent on this subject though.

I find the entire "I don't have the right to judge how people protest" really weak if I'm honest. Yes I get there is a lot of hurt and quite rightly so, but by justifying violent protesting it is totally hypocritical to condemn police brutality that occurs because of this. Police brutality on peaceful protesting is vile and quite rightly should be condemned, police brutality of violent protesting is also horrific as they should be deescalating not inciting it further. However to condemn police for being violent and then say it's ok for protesters to be violent makes no sense whatsoever.

 

The video of the police car driving through the crowds really upset me for two reasons... First driving at people potentially killing or seriously injuring someone what does it solve nothing it just further makes people distrust the police. Second though I was disgusted at the people throwing cones and bottles etc at the car... what does it achieve apart from damaging property, potentially injuring or killing someone? Both were utterly wrong and have achieved nothing at all.

 

There are major flaws on both sides here and actually I judge both sides positively and negatively. There are plenty of peaceful protesters trying to make a change and they are wonderful, they should be praised and change should happen. There are also police officers like the one in that horrific video of the old man who rush to help when he see's him on the floor, he should be praised. The ones smashing cars, shops, setting fires, looting stores are despicable. The police attacking peaceful protesters, shoving that poor old man to the floor, being heartless bast*rds are despicable.

There is actually proof out there of the majority of the protests being peaceful until the cops arrive. Some may have gotten out of hand but it's not for me to judge and to be honest I don't really know what judging others during such a tragic time acheives. I get the whole violence thing but it's a form of retaliation and human instinct to fight back with anger when there has been so much loss and grief in place from the cops with senseless deaths/murderm

There is actually proof out there of the majority of the protests being peaceful until the cops arrive. Some may have gotten out of hand but it's not for me to judge and to be honest I don't really know what judging others during such a tragic time acheives. I get the whole violence thing but it's a form of retaliation and human instinct to fight back with anger when there has been so much loss and grief in place from the cops with senseless deaths/murderm

Well said.

 

I've put off discussing my thoughts on this, because at a time where so many people are feeling an incredible amount of pain, frustration and anger, it really is not a white person's place to say how they should be going about their fight, or look down on them because of that. It seems the majority of people who have expressed their disdain towards the violence happening, or the way the riots have unfolded, etc are white people who will have absolutely no idea just how long black people have struggled in their fight. They're sick and tired now, enough is enough and they're taking a stand.

 

While violence may not be the answer (on both sides), I think it's utterly deplorable the way the US police have retaliated. Driving cars into crowds of people, attacking CHILDREN with pepper-spray, making numerous unfounded arrests, etc. If you drive a car into a group of people standing by others' sides and fighting for what's right, you should expect a cone to smash your windscreen. They just do not get it, and all of it is just a power trip and display of white supremacy to them. I was in tears watching some of the footage on Twitter this morning, and I really hope that this brings about the change that black people are so desperately fighting for right now.

Exactly! As white people (even as gay white people as many on here are) we have never ever had to experience anything quite like what black people have for so so long. It's not something I can even get my head around, such systematic racism that's embedded into virtually every aspect of life, that's shaped their whole life. A lot of the time it's small implcit things but they all build up and then you get instiutational racsm and police brutality shaped by the implicit attitudes ingrained so far into society, you get black people murdered in the streets. Someone white who's never experienced anything close simply cannot comprehend it, nor do we have to, but it's certainly not our place to say how someone should or would react when enough is enough.

 

The violence is largely comng from the police escalating things that don't need to be escalated and I'm sorry but if police are going to carry on with the brutality that is being protested, they are gonna get violence back. When enough is enough, I don't blame protesters fighting fire with fire.

I also don't get this "as a white person I have no right to judge" I mean of course you have a right to opinions about the situation. It's like saying "as a straight person I have no right to judge" for something LGBT related or"as a Christian I have no right to judge" for something Muslim / Judaism related...?

 

As a white person I completely support black lives matter, I think the treatment or black people (and actually Muslim people too, in fact all non-white people) throughout history and still today with systematic racism is horrific, and as a privileged white person, it really bothers me that still today people of colour are still in the lowest wage bracket and live in the poorest geographical locations.

 

As a gay person I fully support LGBTQ+ and have even had to educate myself about gender and how we view gender and hopefully have become a better person for it. I wholeheartedly welcome to support of none LGBTQ+ people though as we can make a better society together not apart.

 

As an atheist I support religious rights, although I'll admit I struggle with one a lot. I don't like religion I find it incredibly corrupt however I believe people should have the freedom to their belief so I really struggle with this, and I don't think religion should have any part in politics at all it should be personal belief and that is it. Maybe this is something I need to keep working on.

 

The whole rioting situation is clearly not a black or white situation (no pun intended... not the right words really for this, and actually is this an example of racism ingrained in me? It's just occurred to me that this probably has negative connotations). However I really don't stand by this "well they've really suffered so fight fire with fire" I don't see how anybody wins here. I also don't see how anybody wins if police are allowed to get away with some of the BLATANT brutality we are seeing though... it really is such a complicated situation.

 

Everybody is entitled to their views, so I guess you're entitled to think that you don't have a right to an opinion in this situation... f***s sake I think I'm talking myself into what I'm trying to talk against :lol:

 

Basically I think the whole situation is horrendous and it's bringing out the worst on both sides... but also the best in some cases too (unfortunately we won't see any of this in the media, we never do).

Sorry for my musings I think I went off topic a bit, as horrific as this situation is it's really making me take a look at myself too.

People are not saying white people can't get involved, in fact it's encouraged - but as a white person we will never have any idea of the anger and frustration black people feel at a time like this, or pretty much ALL the time actually because this and other forms of racism never go away, so we have absolutely no right to judge the way they respond to it

Edited May 31, 20205 yr by LMLou

We're all free to comment on the unfolding events, but I think for us privileged white people to sit here and condemn black people and their allies for trashing a Target store, throwing a cone at a police car, or anything else that's happened in the past few days ultimately... speaks volumes. It becomes part of the problem. We're looking down on black people for responding and retaliating to hundreds of years of systemic racism, heightened by the wholly unnecessary deaths of black people at the hands of power-hungry, racist white people.

 

A police station being burned down, a Target store being looted, a police car being damaged... all of it means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things. Buildings can be restored, merchandise can be replaced. Innocent black lives cannot.

The 'both sides' narrative always benefits the oppressors — there is a false equivalency being made between those that are paid to protect, and those that are fighting to live without fear of being murdered for existing.

The 'both sides' narrative always benefits the oppressors — there is a false equivalency being made between those that are paid to protect, and those that are fighting to live without fear of being murdered for existing.

YES!!!

 

“Both-sides”-ism is an absolute cancer in our society that needs to be cured ASAP. f*** your both sides crap.

It's why I can't help but cringe reading BBC news articles these days. There's nearly always one side more in the moral right than the other, this time round it is certainly the protesters, especially since the police have institutional power behind them, yet by talking up the arguments you have as if they are equal, you make it appear as if things are equal.

 

I know the BBC and people who do this are aiming for impartiality, but there are cases in this world where not picking a side ends up saying just as much. In this case, it would come across as siding with the police.

 

it's not like news media isn't already working their coveted both sides angle to subtly end up saying that the institutions of power are correct, those are just as complicit as the police:

 

@1266943405457846272

To everyone saying that there's no endgame for these riots and it won't help unite the country etc... WELL, here are some bad news. The country had already been broken in half a long time ago and nothing is changing. At all. In fact things are getting worse by the year.

 

*cue Trump's video where he is making fun of Eric Garner's "I can't breathe" plea BEFORE he was even the president*

President Obama has issued a statement:

 

"I want to share parts of the conversations I've had with friends over the past couple days about the footage of George Floyd dying face down on the street under the knee of a police officer in Minnesota.

 

The first is an email from a middle-aged African American businessman.

 

"Dude I gotta tell you the George Floyd incident in Minnesota hurt. I cried when I saw that video. It broke me down. The 'knee on the neck' is a metaphor for how the system so cavalierly holds black folks down, ignoring the cries for help. People don't care. Truly tragic."

 

Another friend of mine used the powerful song that went viral from 12-year-old Keedron Bryant to describe the frustrations he was feeling.

 

The circumstances of my friend and Keedron may be different, but their anguish is the same. It's shared by me and millions of others.

 

 

It's natural to wish for life "to just get back to normal" as a pandemic and economic crisis upend everything around us. But we have to remember that for millions of Americans, being treated differently on account of race is tragically, painfully, maddeningly "normal" — whether it's while dealing with the health care system, or interacting with the criminal justice system, or jogging down the street, or just watching birds in a park.

 

This shouldn't be "normal" in 2020 America. It can't be "normal." If we want our children to grow up in a nation that lives up to its highest ideals, we can and must be better.

 

It will fall mainly on the officials of Minnesota to ensure that the circumstances surrounding George Floyd's death are investigated thoroughly and that justice is ultimately done. But it falls on all of us, regardless of our race or station — including the majority of men and women in law enforcement who take pride in doing their tough job the right way, every day — to work together to create a "new normal" in which the legacy of bigotry and unequal treatment no longer infects our institutions or our hearts."

 

 

What he said.

I'm just going to have to agree to disagree on that view of both sides. I'm not sticking up for the police force at all in this situation and I think it's bit unfair to be called a cancer just because I won't stick up for violence on either sides and also won't sit back and say "I'm not going to have an opinion about it."

 

The way I see it is I was bullied to the extent I was hospitalised for being gay (in fact for people suspecting since I never came out) and weirdly which I've never understood, for being deaf.

 

I was spat on daily, ridiculed for wearing hearing aids (wtf??), had one of my hearing aids pulled out of my ear and stamped on, beaten up several times, had my school bag thrown into the canal, liver put in my pencil case during Science experiments, chewing gum put in my hair resulting in me having to have my hair shaved off, my bag set fire to while it was on my back even had someone put bleach in my drink luckily someone realised how lethal that was and I was informed... whoever did it I never found out. And that is just a few examples, it was constant for 5 years and it was done by "straight" people, mainly boys but tons of girls too. I don't hold the belief that it would be OK for me to start smashing cars, setting fire to buildings, endangering other peoples lives because of the trauma I suffered, and in the same way I don't and will never hold the belief that it justifies anyone else doing it. Now I know that my experiences are nothing compared to the experiences of the black community throughout history, although I would argue that the gay community have been through equal measures of trauma throughout history, and I'm not trying to say I can understand from that perspective. From my own personal experiences though I think I have the right to condemn the actions of anyone if I think it is inappropriate regardless of which 'side' they are on.

The way I see it is I was bullied to the extent I was hospitalised for being gay (in fact for people suspecting since I never came out) and weirdly which I've never understood, for being deaf.

 

I was spat on daily, ridiculed for wearing hearing aids (wtf??), had one of my hearing aids pulled out of my ear and stamped on, beaten up several times, had my school bag thrown into the canal, liver put in my pencil case during Science experiments, chewing gum put in my hair resulting in me having to have my hair shaved off, my bag set fire to while it was on my back even had someone put bleach in my drink luckily someone realised how lethal that was and I was informed... whoever did it I never found out. And that is just a few examples, it was constant for 5 years and it was done by "straight" people, mainly boys but tons of girls too. I don't hold the belief that it would be OK for me to start smashing cars, setting fire to buildings, endangering other peoples lives because of the trauma I suffered, and in the same way I don't and will never hold the belief that it justifies anyone else doing it. Now I know that my experiences are nothing compared to the experiences of the black community throughout history, although I would argue that the gay community have been through equal measures of trauma throughout history, and I'm not trying to say I can understand from that perspective. From my own personal experiences though I think I have the right to condemn the actions of anyone if I think it is inappropriate regardless of which 'side' they are on.

 

I understand what you're saying — and of course, I am sorry to read those horrible experiences — but this isn't about us.

 

I know people disagreeing with me have good intentions — I'm not attacking anyone — but being an ally isn't about applying our personal experiences and trying to relate to something we will never truly understand or encounter. Being an ally isn't condemning black people for how they protest (which has been largely peaceful until police escalate the situation) without listening to why and how things have ended up here. Being an ally isn't disregarding the years of desperation, anger and fear coming to the surface because we don't like how that looks.

 

 

I try not to post in here too much as I don't think I articulate myself that well sometimes :lol: I just couldn't keep silent on this subject though.

Don't hesitate to post Jack! Those with an opposing or even hateful point of view don't hesitate to make their point, no matter how clumsily made (and your own was well articulated here anyway), so you shouldn't either.

 

@1266920326182641670

 

I think this thread is important to post to show that, regardless of what you think of its effectiveness, there is so much peaceful protest going on during this and it's not just rioting. While many of the horrendous incidents are the police provoking the situation in various ways and on the aggregate, the behaviour of the institution is massively harmful, there are also individual members of law enforcement who have joined the protests.

Edited May 31, 20205 yr by Harve

Don't hesitate to post Jack! Those with an opposing or even hateful point of view don't hesitate to make their point, no matter how clumsily made (and your own was well articulated here anyway), so you shouldn't either.

 

@1266920326182641670

 

I think this thread is important to post to show that, regardless of what you think of its effectiveness, there is so much peaceful protest going on during this and it's not just rioting. While many of the horrendous incidents are the police provoking the situation in various ways and on the aggregate, the behaviour of the institution is massively harmful, there are also individual members of law enforcement who have joined the protests.

This thread is so enlightening. From the media you'd think it was ALL the violence and the looting and the police brutality but that's just not the case.

 

On the debate in the thread right now, obviously everyone's entitled to their own opinion but it's one of those things where you just don't know how it feels. I was thinking, if gay people were treated by the police in America in the way black men (and some women I suppose) are, would I be wanting peaceful action? Absolutely not.