I didn't bother reading mine. If I had done, I might have had to fight back the vomit at the "British spirit" bit. Perhaps he means that we should all douse ourselves in meths to fight it off.

 

I havent read it either, just as well by the sounds of it. This is a man who had information at his fingertips about what was coming, what caused it, how to avoid it, and he was still so thick he managed to catch it himself and pass it on to his pregnant partner (most likely). That's what you get when you theoretically hire underlings who are nutjobs who scurry away like frightened rabbits when they realise the bullshit they are spouting isnt killing just ancient plebs, it might actually kill your own job prospects and yourself, arrogantly assuming it's just the flu and since you'd never died of the flu you'd be alright Jack.

 

On a completely unrelated matter I note Cummings hasn't yet taken The Sunday Times to court about their claims about him re: "herd immunity" and "letting the old people die". I bloody well would if it was me and I hadn't said that. Perhaps he's waiting in his country mansion till he's had the all-clear from Covid-19, after all metaphorically closely kissing the PM's arse must put him in the risk group.

in more fun news...

 

 

Twitter:

FUN FACT: Ivanka Trump, who’ll serve on the White House’s new economy-focused coronavirus task force, was granted a trademark on coffins.

 

Bit of fact checking - this was in China 2 years ago. So Donald is not the only Trump making a bit of a killing out of covid-19 then, presumably. Her dad has had previous financial interests from the company he keeps pushing drugs from as a "cure". It's not a cure. There's money to be made in death. A bit like Rees-Mogg's shares in investor-advice bigging-up the boom-possibilities while also having interests in companies selling fags which will have helped thousands have those very same "underlying conditions" that are carrying them off in huge numbers right now.

 

The Filthy Rich in power: no morals at all. It's all about cash.

Cummings has gone completely off the rail since he was said to have the virus according to The Guardian. Wonder if he will be the inevitable fall guy for the herd immunity strategy in the public.

 

Anyway I am a big critque of the government- I think it's hard to criticse adopting a herd immunity strategy if that is what the science was telling at the time. It is OK to follow the leaf of South Korea/China, but they are completely different setups to the Western world socially. Pretty much all of the West has suffered horrendously. The big negligence of the government is their lack of planning for a pandemic. I'm sure when all this is over it will get out that the government ignored all the from the report and not having a stockpile of PPE for the NHS is gross negligence.

 

There's so many reports out there about covid-19 that it's hard to know what is and what isn't true. There's loads of stuff I'm reading at the monent which makes it sound like the virus is more contagious but less aggressive if you are only prolonged to it for a very small time. So chances are 5-15% of us have already built up an immunity to it, but we won't know until there's more widespread testing.

The thing is, herd immunity is a callous strategy whatever the science says, it allows the death rate to happen at whatever percentage it actually is at, and it overloads the health service whatever. I find it hard to believe that it was really the best scientific option either, when you compare to the other two options. South Korea was having great success at controlling what was a much earlier outbreak over there than it should have been by putting in a test and trace (which sorely needs to be adopted by Western governments when they can move into the phase of returning to normality) that has seen them come out of this probably in the best shape on the planet, and the lockdown strategy for other European countries was known to slow it.

 

Hard to say the British government have done anything other than caused thousands of deaths by their negligence, and their methods to solve it are lacking.

Even then, they only moved away from it because they were essentially forced. They were happy for places to be open and events to go ahead, but sport started cancelling everything, councils shutting down leisure centres and closing outdoor events because they realised it was too dangerous to the public. How much worse would we be if those 45 professional football matches, as well as all other cancelled sport, had taken place that weekend?

Indeed it was at this time the ROI closed schools and schools in the north were left open creating a ridiculous 2 tier structure in the island. People actually began to take things into their own hands.

And this hesitation to act MUST be remembered. The government must be held to account even when this is all over. Boris going to hospital will not make me forget.

Edited April 11, 20205 yr by Leanne 🧘🏻‍♀️

The thing is, herd immunity is a callous strategy whatever the science says, it allows the death rate to happen at whatever percentage it actually is at, and it overloads the health service whatever. I find it hard to believe that it was really the best scientific option either, when you compare to the other two options. South Korea was having great success at controlling what was a much earlier outbreak over there than it should have been by putting in a test and trace (which sorely needs to be adopted by Western governments when they can move into the phase of returning to normality) that has seen them come out of this probably in the best shape on the planet, and the lockdown strategy for other European countries was known to slow it.

 

Hard to say the British government have done anything other than caused thousands of deaths by their negligence, and their methods to solve it are lacking.

 

Comparing us to South Korea is like comparing apples to oranges though. It's why the West has sucked compared to the East. Absolutelyminimal people would allow the goverment or whoever to track our movements in the day way, rightly or wrongly. This is where the goverment can't win at all, as not sure anyone at the time would have agreed to a big brother style utopia, especially with all the nutter conspiracy theorists out there...

 

Right now we are doing no worse than the rest of the Western world. The biggest problem is we failed to prepare a proper strategy, hence we are entirely reactive until we get everything under control.

 

Even then, they only moved away from it because they were essentially forced. They were happy for places to be open and events to go ahead, but sport started cancelling everything, councils shutting down leisure centres and closing outdoor events because they realised it was too dangerous to the public. How much worse would we be if those 45 professional football matches, as well as all other cancelled sport, had taken place that weekend?

 

Surely the fallout we are seeing right now in terms of admissions and spread is from when everyone decided one last wild night out would be a great idea..

To say we're doing no worse is very generous, overall the numbers aren't worse but we did have a head start which wasn't taken advantage of. When Madrid was in almost total lockdown because it had spread so far, 3000 people were allowed to fly from there to the UK unchecked and go happily about their business for 2-3 days, watch a football match and fly home. That felt daft at the time, now it looks absolutely appalling. We were always about 2 weeks behind Italy in terms of deaths and cases, we've taken the same sort of measures here roughly 2 weeks after when Italy did. Unsurprisingly, we have very similar curves.

 

You'll be right about the last night the pubs were open, it was daft and common sense to not do it, but it was also common sense to shut them sooner. People will do stuff if they're allowed to. The best way to stop people doing something is to stop them being able to. Senior officials and scientists spent most of the first half of March doing things like dismissing the chances of being able to catch it outside and saying it's no worse than most other forms of flu. You can't blame pockets of the population for not taking it seriously enough when the people in charge didn't take it seriously enough.

Edited April 11, 20205 yr by RabbitFurCoat

Right now we are doing no worse than the rest of the Western world.

But that's not true? Germany, Ireland, Austria, Portugal, Norway, Canada, Australia, NZ, every country in the east of the EU, they've had far fewer people die than in Britain, whether you adjust for population or not. And the situation in Britain is worsening faster than anywhere else in Europe. Even the US has half as many deaths per capita.

Edited April 11, 20205 yr by Harve

And, of course, the press continue on their merry way pretending that things are going really well. Yesterday's death toll in the UK was higher than that seen in any other country in Europe since this began - even higher than Italy's worst figure. How many papers led with this story? How many decided it was more important to report that Boris Johnson had been doing a Sudoku puzzle?

 

Just a few weeks ago, the rising death toll in Italy was being reported in a way that portrayed the Italian government as a bunch of incompetent idiots. Somehow, the British government are apparently doing brilliantly by being worse than Italy.

 

It cannot be said too many times that a Labour government that had done exactly the same as this one, in exactly the same timescale and with exactly the same results would have been crucified by the press.

To say we're doing no worse is very generous, overall the numbers aren't worse but we did have a head start which wasn't taken advantage of. When Madrid was in almost total lockdown because it had spread so far, 3000 people were allowed to fly from there to the UK unchecked and go happily about their business for 2-3 days, watch a football match and fly home. That felt daft at the time, now it looks absolutely appalling. We were always about 2 weeks behind Italy in terms of deaths and cases, we've taken the same sort of measures here roughly 2 weeks after when Italy did. Unsurprisingly, we have very similar curves.

 

You'll be right about the last night the pubs were open, it was daft and common sense to not do it, but it was also common sense to shut them sooner. People will do stuff if they're allowed to. The best way to stop people doing something is to stop them being able to. Senior officials and scientists spent most of the first half of March doing things like dismissing the chances of being able to catch it outside and saying it's no worse than most other forms of flu. You can't blame pockets of the population for not taking it seriously enough when the people in charge didn't take it seriously enough.

 

We are still letting people come back unchecked (I was one of them!) to the country. My own understanding of the situation is the country does not have the resources or the capital to enforce everyone to stay in the country for 2 weeks like a lot of smaller countries have done with a smaller population. That certainly would have been wise, but for whatever reason the government chose not to do it. Just like the also chose not to work collabartively with EU countries to repatriate citizens (again, this won't be picked up in the media but I know for a fact the UK could have worked with Germany at a cost and they would have got thousands of stranded Brits back to Frankfurt at least).

 

Feel it's hard to criticise what the government are doing now and I also don't think what some countries seem to be planning to do is a great idea either, but totally agree there was a complete lack of thorough planning before the event. The pubs should have been shut full stop rather than allowing everyone one last big blowout.

 

But that's not true? Germany, Ireland, Austria, Portugal, Norway, Canada, Australia, NZ, every country in the east of the EU, they've had far fewer people die than in Britain, whether you adjust for population or not. And the situation in Britain is worsening faster than anywhere else in Europe. Even the US has half as many deaths per capita.

 

Some countries reacted differently, noticeably more liberal ones and also far more rural in their landscapes. Plus a lot of these countries also realised the root cause of most cases was international travel, stop tnat and you can get a handle on the spread. It's why I don't think anyone is going on holiday until this is all sorted.. no country will let you in.

 

I think the interesting model to follow right now is Sweden as they are trying to attempt what the UK originally planned for.

I'm not sure it's right to say the government can't win. They can, they could insist on a greater surveillance system because of the clear and present danger to public health, they can say we are following the example of country A which has had good results tackling the virus in this way, they can encourage rather than DISCOURAGE the use of PPE in the health service to stop medical knowledge being lost because doctors and nurses die.

 

The media can help too, if they can disseminate the idea of ritualistic clapping they can do the same for the idea that we are now having it worse than Italy, and there needs to be solutions fast, so government initiatives that might in normal times be disrupting civil liberties are imperative. Use the power of the media to control people for good, rather than let it be an insight into how our lords and masters are that obscures the near a thousand dying every day.

But that's not true? Germany, Ireland, Austria, Portugal, Norway, Canada, Australia, NZ, every country in the east of the EU, they've had far fewer people die than in Britain, whether you adjust for population or not. And the situation in Britain is worsening faster than anywhere else in Europe. Even the US has half as many deaths per capita.

Also the UK only counts the deaths in hospitals

 

Spain, France, Belgium and Germany count all, The netherlands are trying to I think

I'm not sure it's right to say the government can't win. They can, they could insist on a greater surveillance system because of the clear and present danger to public health, they can say we are following the example of country A which has had good results tackling the virus in this way, they can encourage rather than DISCOURAGE the use of PPE in the health service to stop medical knowledge being lost because doctors and nurses die.

 

The media can help too, if they can disseminate the idea of ritualistic clapping they can do the same for the idea that we are now having it worse than Italy, and there needs to be solutions fast, so government initiatives that might in normal times be disrupting civil liberties are imperative. Use the power of the media to control people for good, rather than let it be an insight into how our lords and masters are that obscures the near a thousand dying every day.

 

The greater surveillance thing would work OK now, but it was never going to work in the early stages. People handing over their whereabouts all the time to the state? Absolutely no chance. It works differently in other countries, but it would never ever have worked in most of the Western world in the early stages. We have been well banged in to 1974 mode and there is absolutely no way it would have worked in our country. Flash forward to today, and yes I suspect more people would buy in to it because of the good it would do.

 

Regardless of the government, we still need people to stop flouting the rules. Seen so much happen mainly because people think as it's been 2 weeks now no-one has the virus.

Disagree quite strongly. a strong track & trace form of surveillance is behind a lot of nations not suffering to anywhere near the extent of the lazy US and UK. Frequently mentioned as one of the reasons why Germany has a significantly lower death rate, why Greece and a lot of the Eastern Bloc has got a grip to it. It is perfectly possible in the "west".

 

When the notoriously anti-surveillance and privacy focused Germans are overwhelmingly in favour of a government backed surveillance app to track and trace cases, some serious questions need to be asked of the UK government.

Can we clarify please what a herd immunity is??

 

As I understand it its being bandied about as some kind of miracle cure when actually its just not resisting the virus and letting all of those vulnerable to it die off, isn't it? If we're honest and upfront about it.

 

The only immunity achieved in herd immunity is better genes passed down the line to those children born from parents who've had it and survived. Its not in any way a solution for anyone except those who would definitely have lived through the pandemic anyway.

Immunity wouldn't pass from parent to child. Herd Immunity is a concept most commonly used in vaccinations, the primary idea being that when a significant proportion of the population has the anti-bodies from a vaccine then the virus has no way to spread from person to person. Heard immunity is supposed to protect those who are immunocompromised, sick or too young to be vaccinated.

 

Heard immunity without a vaccine involves infecting that high number of the population and is a bit too close to eugenics for anyone with a moral compass to be comfortable. Its only outcome is a ruined healthcare system and the avoidable deaths of millions of vulnerable people that the entire concept of heard immunity is designed to protect. Its a sick and twisted path.

Whilst I agree that the UK government and the media could've done a better job, there is one thing that differs in the UK compared to a lot of other countries - the population. There are so many idiots in this country who don't take this seriously. I've had massive rows with family members over this. You only have to look at the recent news stories about the amount of house parties the police have been shutting down in Manchester alone. I believe Scotland has issued over 500 fines regarding house parties so far too.

 

The people in countries like Germany are more likely to take this more seriously, as well as follow measures to prevent the spread. Whereas this country is full of people who don't take notice of the warnings and there are quite a few people in this country who think of the virus as a conspiracy. It's honesty sickening to see people being selfish and disregarding what's going on.

Whilst I agree that the UK government and the media could've done a better job, there is one thing that differs in the UK compared to a lot of other countries - the population. There are so many idiots in this country who don't take this seriously. I've had massive rows with family members over this. You only have to look at the recent news stories about the amount of house parties the police have been shutting down in Manchester alone. I believe Scotland has issued over 500 fines regarding house parties so far too.

 

The people in countries like Germany are more likely to take this more seriously, as well as follow measures to prevent the spread. Whereas this country is full of people who don't take notice of the warnings and there are quite a few people in this country who think of the virus as a conspiracy. It's honesty sickening to see people being selfish and disregarding what's going on.

 

Of course, different countries have different mentalities, and there is a lot of distrust in the government here — but that is exactly why the response needed to be concise. There was no strong messaging from the beginning, it wasn't treated as the threat it is, and there was flip-flopping for weeks. They, with the help of the media, created and allowed confusion to permeate.

 

I'm not sure it's right to say the government can't win. They can, they could insist on a greater surveillance system because of the clear and present danger to public health, they can say we are following the example of country A which has had good results tackling the virus in this way, they can encourage rather than DISCOURAGE the use of PPE in the health service to stop medical knowledge being lost because doctors and nurses die.

 

The media can help too, if they can disseminate the idea of ritualistic clapping they can do the same for the idea that we are now having it worse than Italy, and there needs to be solutions fast, so government initiatives that might in normal times be disrupting civil liberties are imperative. Use the power of the media to control people for good, rather than let it be an insight into how our lords and masters are that obscures the near a thousand dying every day.

 

This is spot-on. All that time critical time wasted despite there being examples of what other countries were getting right and wrong.

Edited April 11, 20205 yr by blacksquare